Let's write a Hobbit script of our own!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I very strongly agree with Al.

[QuackingTroll]

I agree with Al. However it is useless writing a script if we stick 100% to the book. But I think the intro at least should be as true as possible. I'm still in favour of a non-Thorin oriented prologue before the title, though!

[Elentári]

Can I clarify one thing? the majority want the film to open with the immortal lines, right? Does that also imply that the majority feels the film should proceed straight into the unexpected party, or would there be scope to jump back into time, say to Gandalf's meeting with Thorin, after the introduction of Bilbo?

[Ethelwynn]

I think it would be very awkward to go back to the Thorin/Gandalf piece after Bilbo is introduced. Once the story starts, it should continue straight through without too many flashbacks, IMO. And yes, I also think we need the opening lines as written when we first show Bag End.

I'll admit I never questioned the way the story started when I first read the book, but then again I was 8 years old and didn't think too deeply about anything. Were I to read it for the first time now I would have a million questions about the situation before Bilbo goes to bed. Things like "Why did Gandalf choose Bilbo when he seems so wrong for anything more dangerous than weeding daffodils?" and "Why is a wizard looking for someone other than a Dwarf for a mission otherwise served by Dwarves?" and "Why aren't the Dwarves finding their own burgler?" and "Why does Bilbo not throw the first Dwarf out of his home immediately?" come to mind. I'd be screaming "EXPLAIN!!!" at the book in frusteration.

Of course, once I read some of the other books and learned more of the backstory I realized that Gandalf had Bilbo picked out for the job from the first and knew that there was more to a middle-aged Hobbit than met the eye. My concern from a script-writing POV is that much of our audience may not have read any of the books and will be asking the same questions I would. I know I'm being a pain with this, and if the group decides differently I'll go with the group decision, but these are my thoughts.

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

I think there are ways round the problems of backstory. Very many screen treatments start at a point that is well advanced in the overall narrative and use different methods to explain how the situation has developed to the point where the viewer first encounters it.
The narrative problem for The Hobbit is choosing which of several dramatically excellent openings would be best. As I said the choice defines the mood and the underlying question posed to the audience. Personally, having listened to the discussions and also trusting my heart a little, I incline towards the iconic opening of the book and treat the backstory as a narrative problem to be solved. Bilbo doesn't have to be at the very start of the series in order to be the chief character but the Bag End opening makes the journey from lightness to dark.

[Ethelwynn]

How would anyone feel about putting this part of the backstory into Rivendell? Perhaps Gandalf could give Elrond the whole story as an explanation of why he's traveling with this unlikely company and why the Elves should help Dwarves. Would that work for most of us?

I strongly feel that I don't want a flashback of anything other than the attack on the Lonely Mountain during the Unexpected Party, as it would break the flow of the scene too much. Still, the Gandalf/Thorin scene is one I really want to see and I believe the film needs.

[Elentári]

That's a possibillity, certainly. I feel like you, that Gandalf's explanation of how he met Thorin and came to the conclusion that Bilbo was meant to be involved is something that I would like to see, if we can make it work somewhere in the 6 hours!

But let's proceed for now with the opening chapter just as in the book and see how the script evolves as we go along

[Alatar]

As I suggested before, I think it could work at some stage in the White Council material as Gandalf explains his actions to try to neutralise the threat of Smaug.

In fact, it occurs to be now that it would nice to structure this in such a way that all non-Hobbit material be handled in the WC storyline. That way, future imaginary viewers of our future imaginary series/movie could elect to watch the "Purist cut" of "The Hobbit".

[Elentári]

Exactly! Like I said a few days ago, it would in fact have worked better with Jackson's original intention to have pure HOBBIT in F1 and White Council/background stuff in the second film, almost like 2 different viewpoints of the same events...

[QuackingTroll]

About the first line...

I really don't think the film starts until the secondary title comes up. The prologues to LOTR were almost seperate entities, with metaphorical imagery (Gollum's eyes changing, the ring bouncing away from Gollum, the bursts of flame for transitions in FotR), we don't really get into the story until "The Fellowship of the Ring" or "The Two Towers" comes up.

If we want ours to flow with PJ's then ours should do the same and we should hold back "In a hole in the ground" until after "There and Back Again" comes on screen (which would be after some sort of metaphorical montage or prologue).

Of course, it depends on whether we want it to flow with his or not. We could just have one title "The Hobbit: There and Back Again" and straight into Hobbiton. Or even do an Avatar and don't show the title until the end of the film. We don't want to be mimicking Peter Jackson though, so maybe starting from scratch is the best option?

[Ethelwynn]

And that's another question we have to decide on; is our movie a prequel to Jackson's trilogy or are we starting fresh?

[QuackingTroll]

To avoid mimicking PJ or forcing things in/cutting bits out for continuity. I vote we start fresh. It's the year 2092 and we're doing a 4D remake for the hovercar drive-ins on the moon.

[Ethelwynn]

I have only one problem with this, QT. If it's the year 2092 I would be officially older than Gandalf's grandfather.

[Elentári]

So...let's look at what we have agreed on so far!

- NO prologue...film starts at Hobbiton with "In a hole in the ground..."

- script proceeds as per the book with An unexpected Party, but we will visualize the backstory for Thror/Smaug coming to Erebor, and Thrain in DG as it is related during the party...

- script again proceeds following the book until we get to Rivendell, where we will look at the possibility of including Gandalf telling how he met Thorin on the road to Bree...

- The history of the Ring and other "wider" background story issues we will keep to the White Council parts of the film so that HOBBIT stays innocent

Anything else?

[Ethelwynn]

That's what I've got for our checked off points. The next question for me is where do we put the White Council and the attack on Dol Guldur? Is it reasonable to have Gandalf attend the White Council meeting immediately after he leaves the Dwarves at Mirkwood and then show the attack with an army already assembled? Or should the Council meeting happen earlier, and the attack be the reason why Gandalf leaves the Dwarves?

[Alatar]

I'm not sure I understand your question.If Gandalf leaves the Dwarves at Mirkwood that still leaves loads and loads of time for White Council meetings, mustering the army and the attack on Dol Guldor.

Also, we haven't even decided if there's an army to be mustered. Is the assault on Dol Guldor a full scale battle, a mere skirmish or even a feint and retreat. Who would be in this possible army? The only real options are the Elves of Lothlórien and Beorn. We're hardly likely to introduce a bunch of Gondorians or Rohirrim, the Rivendell Elves are at the other side of the Misty Mountains, and the Elves of Mirkwood are marching to the Bo5A.

I've always imagined the Attack on Dol Guldor as being a showdown between Sauron and the Council. A battle of wills, rather than of armies.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Me too.

[QuackingTroll]

Don't need to worry about that yet. The earliest we can mention Sauron, if not in a prologue, is at Rivendell. So we can figure out an answer when we get there.

[Elentári]

I'm not sure I understand your question.If Gandalf leaves the Dwarves at Mirkwood that still leaves loads and loads of time for White Council meetings, mustering the army and the attack on Dol Guldor.

Quite agree - Gandalf dos not return to the Hobbit storyline until well after Smaug's death - a time period of a good two-three months, surely?

I've always imagined the Attack on Dol Guldor as being a showdown between Sauron and the Council. A battle of wills, rather than of armies.

We do have the slight problem of Tolkien's vision when he wrote The Hobbit - he talks of the "White Wizards", and we all accept that this translates into the White Council later on. Apart from the fact that we don't know who exactly was on the Council, there wold have only been 3 Istari at the most, and we must not forget that the Istari were forbidden to act directly against Sauron. So one wonders how much they were able to use their "powers"? We do have this quote from FotR:

"But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur. It might be that he had found some weapons that would drive back the Nine."

So certainly they seemed able to drive away the Nazgûl if there had been any there, but I think it more likely that Elven warriors would have been brought along to deal with any Orc resistance - Mirkwood and Lórien Elves most likely rather than Rivendell - cue cameos for Haldir as well as Legolas!

But as QT says, we have plenty of time to worry about that part of the film later....

[Ethelwynn]

And don't forget the chance to use some men if we want. It would not be out of the way to show some Rangers here, if we want. One never knows where those fellows wander about.

I think the attack would have to involve some serious forces, since Sauron would have at least Orcs manning (Orcing) hsi walls. He might have Trolls also, and possibly the Nazgûl in attendance. If this were easy to deal with, Thranduil would have taken care of it himself long ago.

How fast do Elves travel? When the White Council meets and decides to attack, I assume they don't have the army standing by. Messages would have to be sent and forces assembled, then there's the problem of supplies and moving the armies to where they need to be. Add on time for battle and cleaning up the mess and you could be looking at well more than 3 months.