US Supreme Court Discussions

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Voronwë the Faithful
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Some day, historians are going to have a field day addressing John Roberts' legacy. He is generally a reliable conservative, and has written the majority opinion of some of the most anti-progressive decisions of recent years, such as the Shelby County case that gutted the Voting Rights Act. But every once in a while, he comes out of the woodwork to cross over to the other side with the most famous case being when he abruptly switched sides and "saved" the Affordable Care Act.

In the latest example, he cast the deciding vote in a 5-4 decision refusing the request of a California church to lift the restrictions on gatherings. The other conservative justices all voted to do so, but Roberts sided with the other side, writing the opinion himself. As ScotusBlog says:
The restrictions appear, Roberts wrote, to be constitutional: The state has limited the size of similar, non-religious gatherings like plays, concerts and sporting events. Although the state treats activities like grocery stores and banks differently, Roberts continued, those activities are in fact different, because they do not involve large groups of people coming together in close proximity for extended periods of time. “The precise question of when restrictions on particular social activities should be lifted during the pandemic,” Roberts reasoned, “is a dynamic and fact-intensive matter subject to reasonable disagreement.” It is also, Roberts observed, a question the Constitution has primarily delegated to politicians, which courts should normally not second-guess. “That is especially true,” Roberts explained, in a case like this one, in which the church is seeking emergency relief “while local officials are actively shaping their response to changing facts on the ground.” The idea that it is so clear that the restrictions are unconstitutional that the Supreme Court should step in, Roberts concluded, “seems quite improbable.”
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

Post by yovargas »

Did the dissenting judges publish the rationale for their opinions?
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yes. More from ScotusBlog.
In a three-page dissent joined by Thomas and Gorsuch, Kavanaugh argued that the restrictions on attendance imposed on the church do violate the Constitution. In his view, the businesses that are not subject to the restrictions – which, he noted, include malls, pet groomers, hair salons and marijuana dispensaries – are comparable to gatherings at houses of worship, and California has not shown a good reason for treating houses of worship differently. Because the church “would suffer irreparable harm from not being able to hold services on Pentecost Sunday in a way that comparable secular businesses and persons can conduct their activities,” Kavanaugh would have granted the church’s request for relief.
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

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Not sure how deploying logic became a progressive thing but such are the times we live in.
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

Post by yovargas »

Am I wrong to say that even if he was right that "California has not shown a good reason", that's still not the same as saying it's unconstitutional?
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

This what he actually says:
To justify its discriminatory treatment of religious worship services, California must show that its rules are “justified by a compelling governmental interest” and “narrowly tailored to advance that interest.” Lukumi, 508 U. S., at 531–532. California undoubtedly has a compelling interest in combating the spread of COVID–19 and protecting the health of its citizens. But “restrictions inexplicably applied to one group and exempted from another do little to further these goals and do much to burden religious freedom.” Roberts v. Neace, 958 F. 3d 409, 414 (CA6 2020) (per curiam). What California needs is a compelling justification for distinguishing between (i) religious worship services and (ii) the litany of other secular businesses that are not subject to an occupancy cap. California has not shown such a justification. The Church has agreed to abide by the State’s rules that apply to comparable secular businesses. That raises important questions: “Assuming all of the same precautions are taken, why can someone safely walk down a grocery store aisle but not a pew? And why can someone safely interact with a brave deliverywoman but not with a stoic minister?” Ibid.

The Church and its congregants simply want to be treated equally to comparable secular businesses. California already trusts its residents and any number of businesses to adhere to proper social distancing and hygiene practices. The State cannot “assume the worst when people go to worship but assume the best when people go to work or go about the rest of their daily lives in permitted social settings.” Ibid. California has ample options that would allow it to combat the spread of COVID–19 without discriminating against religion. The State could “insist that the congregants adhere to social-distancing and other health requirements and leave it at that—just as the Governor has done for comparable secular activities.” Id., at 415. Or alternatively, the State could impose reasonable occupancy caps across the board. But absent a compelling justification (which the State has not offered), the State may not take a looser approach with, say, supermarkets, restaurants, factories, and offices while imposing stricter requirements on places of worship. The State also has substantial room to draw lines, especially in an emergency. But as relevant here, the Constitution imposes one key restriction on that line-drawing: The State may not discriminate against religion. In sum, California’s 25% occupancy cap on religious worship services indisputably discriminates against religion, and such discrimination violates the First Amendment. See Ohio Citizens for Responsible Energy, Inc. v. NRC, 479 U. S. 1312 (1986) (Scalia, J., in chambers). The Church would suffer irreparable harm from not being able to hold services on Pentecost Sunday in a way that comparable secular businesses and persons can conduct their activities. I would therefore grant the Church’s request for a temporary injunction. I respectfully dissent.
Of course, he is simply full of shit. As Roberts says in his majority opinion:
Although California’s guidelines place restrictions on places of worship, those restrictions appear consistent with the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. Similar or more severe restrictions apply to comparable secular gatherings, including lectures, concerts, movie showings, spectator sports, and theatrical performances, where large groups of people gather in close proximity for extended periods of time. And the Order exempts or treats more leniently only dissimilar activities, such as operating grocery stores, banks, and laundromats, in which people neither congregate in large groups nor remain in close proximity for extended periods. The precise question of when restrictions on particular social activities should be lifted during the pandemic is a dynamic and fact-intensive matter subject to reasonable disagreement. Our Constitution principally entrusts “[t]he safety and the health of the people” to the politically accountable officials of the States “to guard and protect.” Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U. S. 11, 38 (1905). When those officials “undertake[ ] to act in areas fraught with medical and scientific uncertainties,” their latitude “must be especially broad.” Marshall v. United States, 414 U. S. 417, 427 (1974). Where those broad limits are not exceeded, they should not be subject to second-guessing by an “unelected federal judiciary,” which lacks the background, competence, and expertise to assess public health and is not accountable to the people. See Garcia v. San Antonio Metropolitan Transit Authority, 469 U. S. 528, 545 (1985).
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Here's a good article on the opinions, that says much what I did, in more detail, and in almost as pointed terms.

Roberts Upholds Covid-19 Restrictions on Churches, Scolds Kavanaugh
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

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You know, I really, really do to see anything from an opposing perspective even if I strongly disagree, because reasonable and honest people can have reasonable and honest disagreements. But seeing kavanaugh say that the order was "indisputable religious discrimination" is so blatantly false and misleading, I can't find a way to understand it but as disgusting partisan pandering. The court is supposed to be set up to be above such blatant partisanship but I suppose my idea is in the past now.
Last edited by yovargas on Sun May 31, 2020 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

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I agree, yov. I don't think I have ever before said that a Supreme Court justice was "full of shit".
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

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In a 6-3 decision written by Justice Gorsuch and also joined by Chief Justice Roberts and the four liberal/moderate members of the court, the high court ruled that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act protects gay AND transgender people from employment discrimination.

Wow!
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

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Yay!!
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

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This decision comes just days after the Trump administration removed Obama-era protections that specifically ban discrimination against transgender patients. The reasoning of that action is diametrically opposite to what the court found in these cases, and so it will be interesting to see what litigation follows.
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:In a 6-3 decision written by Justice Gorsuch and also joined by Chief Justice Roberts and the four liberal/moderate members of the court, the high court ruled that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act protects gay AND transgender people from employment discrimination.

Wow!
AWESOMESAUCE!!
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

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Didn't even know this was even before the court so this is quite a surprise, but having the decision be 6-3 is really surprising!


eta - so I work in the housing industry and every year they require us to take a little class going over the laws regarding housing discrimination. Literally minutes before seeing this decision, I was going over the portion of the class mentioning the various protected classes, and it highlighted how sex is currently a federally protected class but sexual orientation isn't. What a coincidence! Did this decision make the video class obsolete a few minutes after I watched it, or are employment discrimination laws separate from housing discrimination laws?
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

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The LGBTQ community has taken quite a hit with this administration.
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

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yovargas wrote:Didn't even know this was even before the court so this is quite a surprise, but having the decision be 6-3 is really surprising!


eta - so I work in the housing industry and every year they require us to take a little class going over the laws regarding housing discrimination. Literally minutes before seeing this decision, I was going over the portion of the class mentioning the various protected classes, and it highlighted how sex is currently a federally protected class but sexual orientation isn't. What a coincidence! Did this decision make the video class obsolete a few minutes after I watched it, or are employment discrimination laws separate from housing discrimination laws?
I think they are different, yes. Housing discrimination is addressed under the Fair Housing Act, thae much I know.
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

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California’s ‘sanctuary’ rules stay in place after Supreme Court rejects Trump’s challenge

The Supreme Court on Monday refused to hear the Trump administration’s challenge to a California “sanctuary” law, leaving intact rules that prohibit law enforcement officials from aiding federal agents in taking custody of immigrants as they are released from jail.
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Thanks Frelga, yes that was the other big SCOTUS news today, though I would characterize it as them "punting" rather than them rejecting Trump's challenge.
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

Post by RoseMorninStar »

Someone posited that some of these 'wins' (on the liberal side) are because the Supreme court is worn out with all the crap being thrown at them that hasn't even gone through the lower courts and suspect these may be 'gimme's' because there are going to be some big 'wins' (on the conservative/Trump side) coming soon.

Ugh.
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Re: US Supreme Court Discussions

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Inanna wrote:
yovargas wrote:Didn't even know this was even before the court so this is quite a surprise, but having the decision be 6-3 is really surprising!


eta - so I work in the housing industry and every year they require us to take a little class going over the laws regarding housing discrimination. Literally minutes before seeing this decision, I was going over the portion of the class mentioning the various protected classes, and it highlighted how sex is currently a federally protected class but sexual orientation isn't. What a coincidence! Did this decision make the video class obsolete a few minutes after I watched it, or are employment discrimination laws separate from housing discrimination laws?
I think they are different, yes. Housing discrimination is addressed under the Fair Housing Act, thae much I know.
Yes, they are different laws, but the reasoning in the employment case should apply to housing discrimination. The question is the interpretation of what "because of sex". The language in the two laws is the same.
Someone posited that some of these 'wins' (on the liberal side) are because the Supreme court is worn out with all the crap being thrown at them that hasn't even gone through the lower courts and suspect these may be 'gimme's' because there are going to be some big 'wins' (on the conservative/Trump side) coming soon.
Honestly, I don't even know what that means. Can you point me to whoever "posited" this? I would like to understand it, because it doesn't make any sense to me.
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