Aninkling over on B77 created a thread with this title to present alternative POVs to the prevailing sentiment on the board, and I thought we could use one here also.

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The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End

*Crossposted on B77*

I've been feeling somewhat similar lately. Its got to the stage where even questioning the Left wing ideology gets you branded an apologist, or worse.

An example from a few weeks ago. An Irish broadcaster, George Hook, who is in his 70's I believe, was reporting on the alleged rape of a woman. She had gone back to a room with a stranger to have sex, while drunk. After he left, a friend of his came in and attempted to have sex with her also. Now, George's arguments was as follow:



Now, he worded it badly. The word "blame" should never have been used, and of course, nobody "deserves" to be raped. But he had a point. Nobody "deserves" to get mugged, but if I walk through Harlem at 3am, (or whatever your local dangerous area is) I am putting myself in harms way. Is there no personal responsibility on me to use my common sense and avoid danger?

Well, George apologized profusely, but there was what can only be described as a witch hunt, and he was fired. And I think that was wrong. What do the rest of you think?

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The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End

I've been thinking this a lot too of late but boy do I wish you'd picked a better example cuz...




...this is a really, really, really disgusting thing to say.

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I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists

I don't know if this is true in general, but it certainly is on issues surrounding race and gender. Of course, consider the alternative. At this point, whenever an incident occurs I feel as though I'm being asked to choose between the Inquisition and the Nazi party, and I don't even know who's a reaction to whom anymore. And I hate it.

There may be some example where the complaint is legitimate, but the one Al picked is just appalling.

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“I am not so blind that I can't see darkness.”
Dangerous Beans
Terry Pratchett, The Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents

:agree:

Sent from my LG G6 using Tapatalk

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In gratitude forever … .

If a woman is expected to have better judgment than to get into a situation where she's vulnerable to rape, why is there no expectation that a man who finds a woman in such a situation should be capable of not raping her?

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King

Al's example (amd Prim's comment) brings to mind something I saw on FB yesterday. I don't have time to track it down, but basically, a professor asked first the men in his class, then the women, what they do every day to protect and maintain their own physical safety.

The men hummed and hawed, and finally one said, "Not go to jail."

The women came up with dozens of things, like avoiding underground parking garages and dimly lit areas, checking the back seat of their car before getting in, not getting on an elevator alone with a man, carrying their car keys in their hand and being prepared to use them as a weapon, not leaving their drinks unattended at a bar, not drinking until they were visibly drunk, going out in groups for protection, not wearing clothing that is too revealing, having a man's voice on their answering machine, not renting ground-floor apartments, keeping windows shut and locked even in the summertime, avoiding wooded areas even in the daytime, having a large dog, etc. etc.

In an ideal world, it wouldn't be this way. Women would have the same freedom as men. And NO ONE would question if that woman somehow contributed to her own rape.

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When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.

I deliberately picked this one for that reason. Yes, it was an appalling thing to say. The question is whether it should be a career ending mistake? He profusely and unequivocally apologised, and is undoubtedly a product of his generation, but even so it was a terrible thing to say. But should it be career ending?

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The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End

But nobody is saying that? Of course that should be the expectation. But bad people exist. I should expect never to be knifed, but if I walk down a dark alley I'm increasing my risk.

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The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End

I'm trying my damndest to be fair-minded here and try to listen to what Al is trying to say. The whole "avoid walking alone in Harlem at night" thing isn't a crazy thing to say. (Non-relevant side note but I don't think Harlem is known as an especially high crime area anymore; but that's besides the point.) In a perfect world that wouldn't be a concern but we know that criminals exist and telling someone to avoid high crime areas is fair advice, even though it seems rather cruel to tell that to someone after they've been beat and mugged in a "bad" neighborhood.

So, okay, rapists exist and while that is awful it's not going to change any time soon, so hey, let's be realistic, right? Okay....but I'm legit not getting what the "high risk" actions this woman took are. She found a guy she wanted to have sex with so they went to a hotel to have sex. What part of this is "putting herself in danger"?

Is it that she went to a hotel? If so, where should a woman choose to have sex instead?
Is it that she just met the guy? If so, how much time do you have to spend getting to know a guy before you can stop worrying about being raped? If this had happened on a second date, can she be "surprised" than? 5 dates? 10 dates?
Maybe it's that she was drinking in public? Should women just never do that ever?
I don't ask this to be snarky or try to score points. I'm genuinely trying to understand what the expected advice is to women given the reality that rapists exist and are not going anywhere.

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I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists

Fair questions Yov, and ones I have to consider when talking to my 19 year old daughter in University. Short answer is obviously that I'd prefer she never puts herself in a position where she is not in complete control, but that's in an ideal world. Meeting a random stranger who she doesn't know, getting drunk and going somewhere alone with him is pretty much worst case scenario. In reality, I'd like to hope she doesn't put herself into a dangerous position with a man she doesn't know, whether drunk or sober. Do I think she deserves to be assaulted for not following simple safety guidelines? Of course not. But that won't stop me from trying to impress on her in the strongest possible terms that not all men are to be trusted.

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The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End

I think yov is probably right about this specific case, but I also think that when it is true, it should be possible to point out that a victim was only in a position to be victimized because he or she did something dumb. And you should be able to do that without everyone calling you an apologist for the criminal. If we were talking about some guy who got beaten and robbed by a Craigslist buyer he chose to meet in a dark alley, this would be totally noncontroversial.

Now, what counts as being dumb? That's harder to answer. But should guessing wrong mean that, in the court of public opinion, you're almost as bad as the rapist himself?

Of course not Dave, but I don't think anyone is saying that? Even George Hook in his clumsy way made that bit unequivocal.

"Should she be raped? Course she shouldn’t. Is she entitled to say no? Absolutely. Is the guy who came in a scumbag? Certainly. Should he go to jail? Of Course. All of those things."

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The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End

I thought I was agreeing with you. Which "that" do you mean?

This bit Dave.

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The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End

I tend to read messageboards like conversations. If I reply like that, its normally to the last thing said.

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The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End

Ah. You're right; no one here said anything like that. I'm bringing baggage from other conversations to this one* and "replying" to people who aren't even here. It annoys me to no end when other people do that, so I apologize.

*I was thinking of some of the stories related in the Weinstein article from the sister thread on b77

Dave, that is definitely something I do, too. I'm trying to avoid it. But Twitter and other social media lately has been hypersensitizing on this topic—so many powerful stories from so many women, coupled with so much awfulness from so many terrible trolls.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King

Everyone's a stranger at first. People at bars drink. Of course she went somewhere alone because they were going to have sex.

I think part of the problem is that it seems that no matter what the circumstances of rape accusations, no matter how it happened or what the woman did, there seems to always be a chorus of people saying "well, why was she doing X to being with?" Even if it happens with someone she knows well, while sober, attending a public place, there will be people saying that "she should have been more responsible". It's horribly unfair.

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I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists