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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:27 am 
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Decline of empire sounds dramatic, I know, but that's where America as a world power now stands in the long sweep of history, well on the downward slope with decreasing moral, economic and political authority.

As with the falls of previous empires, there is political and economic splintering occuring amongs the states that have previously been under the political wing of the dominant power, and the next generations will live through a period of uncertainty.

Interesting times.

This is not what we were promised. Either the Age of Aquarius flew past us in a blink (a couple of months in the late 70's?) or it skipped us altogether. [/bitter jesting].

Sent from a tiny phone keyboard via Tapatalk - typos inevitable.

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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Primula Baggins wrote:
Where are we, that this won’t end his political career?

I guess past the point where sexually assaulting teenagers could end your political career. If you’re in the right party.

I feel sick.


The Jones campaign seems to be more aggressively addressing this news then they have the allegations of sexual misconduct. The theory seems to be in a race that still seems close (though most recent polls have Moore ahead) boosting turnout among African-Americans outraged by these comments (which were not actually recent; they were made in September but were recently retweeted) could put Jones over the top.

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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:05 pm 
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Meanwhile...
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That actually makes a 2017 kind of sense. The former shows that he is a horrible human, the latter that his politics are horrible for a group of voters.

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:57 pm 
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http://www.nationalreview.com/article/454542/roy-moore-election-conservative-case-against-him

Even without him being a sex abuser, even without the statements about slavery, Moore is clearly unfit for office.

I'm not really buying that Franken and Conyers were forced to resign out of any sense of virtue. Their seats are being taken by Democrats and now this gives the Democrats an open lane to attack Republicans on Moore. It's just normal politics.


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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:26 pm 
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not something I would recommend
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"Partisan politics does strange things to human minds."

That sentence should be on the $1 bill.

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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:15 am 
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Faramond wrote:
I'm not really buying that Franken and Conyers were forced to resign out of any sense of virtue. Their seats are being taken by Democrats and now this gives the Democrats an open lane to attack Republicans on Moore. It's just normal politics.


Actually, while Franken's seat will be taken by a Democrat in the short run, as the Democratic governor will appoint an interim senator, there is a very good chance that the seat will go to a Republican next year. Franken's term was not scheduled to end until 2020, but now there will be a new election next year, and popular ex-Governor Tim Pawlenty is the likely GOP nominee, should he choose to run. If he does run he will probably be the favorite over likely interim senator Tina Smith, the current Lt. Gov. Minnesota is one of the most purple states in the nation (Franken won his seat by one of the smallest margins ever ( 312 votes out of nearly three million cast) though he quickly became very popular and won reelection easily in 2014. This has gone from a solidly Democratic seat for the foreseeable future to toss-up in the crucial 2018 mid-term election.

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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:51 pm 
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Griff made the same point without the detail, but I'm not buying that a Republican will win in MN in a likely wave election for Democrats. Anyway, clearing a lane to attack Roy Moore and his horse Sassy is more important than a possibility of losing in 2018.

The RNC is immoral and stupid, just like Trump. What is the political calculus of even supporting Moore? They have to know he will be used against their candidates. Are they just hoping he wins so they can then boot him out of the Senate and then -- what? Another appointee? I think they're playing the same 17 dimensional chess that Trump plays.


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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:00 pm 
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I don't disagree with your fundamental point, Faramond. In fact, I was just stating in a phone conversation with my Dad that I don't think they Democrats are any more moral than the Republicans. I am heartily sick of all of them, to be honest.

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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:47 pm 
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not something I would recommend
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Third party! Third party! Third party! Third party! Third party! Third party! Third party!

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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:54 pm 
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I wouldn't be surprised if the Trumpites broke away from the Republican party, dooming both electorally for a while, but maybe allowing the Republican party to return to its principles. That would be a better outcome than principled Republicans creating a new party and ceding the GOP to the unprincipled.

Sometimes amputation is the only way to save your life.

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:56 pm 
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Sorry, yov. I haven't found that third-party politicians (or independents) are fundamentally any better, and in some cases they are worse (arguably, Trump is really a third-party politician masquerading as a Republican). Ross Perot, Jesse Ventura, Ron Paul, etc. The last third party or independent candidate that I thought was remotely worth considering was John Anderson (and in hindsight he really doesn't look as good to me now as he did then).

x-posted with the famous author

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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:07 pm 
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:salmon:

And there's more where that one came from.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:07 am 
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Meanwhile...
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Everything confusing about Republican politics in 2017 stems from the assumption that GOP is committed to any sort of democratic process. Thesis - the GOP is dedicated to seizing and maintaining power for the benefit of a handful of wealthy donors, relies on the voters that will trust only party-approved information sources, failing that engages in blatant vote suppression and manipulation, and incites racial and religious hatred to mask problems caused or exacerbated by their policies. Is there anything about 2017 that does not fit that explanation?

I would welcome evidence to the contrary, as long as it is based on facts.

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:53 am 
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Roy Moore lost. There is still hope.

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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:55 am 
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Yes, there is.

Black voters did it. They can do it again.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:01 am 
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Was that the only reason?

(If the famous author says so...)

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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:27 am 
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Meanwhile...
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Pretty much, yeah.

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:48 am 
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Inanna, :salmon: Maybe I am going to run out. :x

And, black voters didn't just solidly vote Democratic; their turnout was way up. That did it. They did it.

(Turnout among white Republican voters was way down, too— Moore's percentages were significantly less than Trump's a year earlier. That helped. But it wouldn't have been enough without the really big turnout among nonwhite Democrats.)

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:41 am 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
I don't disagree with your fundamental point, Faramond. In fact, I was just stating in a phone conversation with my Dad that I don't think they Democrats are any more moral than the Republicans. I am heartily sick of all of them, to be honest.


I actually think the problem lies in the voters rather than the politicians. We get the best politicians we can expect given a) the level of personal vitriol routinely directed against those on the 'other' side, which must make anyone think twice about running for office, and b) the tendency of people to form blocs, defend the indefensible on their own side, and credit the worst possible motives to those on the other.

On the latter point, one of my favourite essays - Notes on Nationalism by George Orwell, May 1945. I was going to post it in the Echo Chamber thread, but it works just as well here.

http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat


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 Post subject: Re: The Cost of Virtue
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Túrin Turambar wrote:
I actually think the problem lies in the voters rather than the politicians.


I don't disagree, although an argument can be made that voters are limited by who actually runs for office.

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