Escaping the Echo Chamber

[yovargas]

Which photo are you referring to, Cerin? I'm not seeing any photos of exposed women?

[elengil]

Which photo are you referring to, Cerin? I'm not seeing any photos of exposed women?

Pretty sure he means the Meriam-Webster one about hiring biases.

Cerin's point might have merit if women were treated as equals in, say, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia where they are ensured to be fully covered. Or if women had previously been taken more seriously as intellectuals back when they wore this:

dress.jpg (7.21 KiB) Viewed 4057 times

[yovargas]

Pretty sure he means the Meriam-Webster one about hiring biases.

I'm hoping that Cerin isn't saying that a woman wearing a form fitting sweater is dressing like a prostitute.....

[elengil]

Pretty sure he means the Meriam-Webster one about hiring biases.

I'm hoping that Cerin isn't saying that a woman wearing a form fitting sweater is dressing like a prostitute.....

Tsk. Exotic dancer, Yov. Not prostitute.

[Cerin]

Which photo are you referring to, Cerin? I'm not seeing any photos of exposed women?

There is only one photo related to the employment-bias discussion. It's toward the bottom of page 42. The woman is wearing form-fitting clothing.

Yes, I'm saying that women's fashion has them dressing to reveal their bodies (prostitutes dress to reveal their bodies because that's what they're selling). I'm not faulting the woman who dresses fashionably; I'm faulting the society that dictates the fashion, which women slavishly follow if they want to be considered attractive.

[Dave_LF]

FWIW, men's fashion is definitely trending in the tighter-fitting direction right now. Maybe the two will meet somewhere in the middle.

The real issue of course is that for women's fashion, "professional" implies "attractive." it's interesting to consider how men's professional attire might be different if appearing attractive to women were a bigger factor in its design...

[Maria]

Any situation where the women are scantily clad and the men are fully dressed bothers me. Situations where women are clothed much more than men bother me.

The only solution is total equality in legal clothing options. It is NOT fair that my husband can be seen topless but I can't. Legally, I mean.

*************************
On the animal topic. It does bother me that my cattle and sheep must be confined. That they have no choice but to stay with me. I always give my pets a choice, and my chickens. They are free range. There are legal consequences to letting livestock run all over the place though. You think hitting a deer with your car does damage? Try hitting a half a ton of "mini" beef. We can't just release them into the wild. There isn't much "wild" left.

And my sheep would be dead in a week if they didn't have us and our livestock guardian dog to protect them. Coyotes are not scarce, and sheep are within their size range of possible prey.

It does people good to take care of another living creature.

[Cerin]

FWIW, men's fashion is definitely trending in the tighter-fitting direction right now. Maybe the two will meet somewhere in the middle.

That would be nice. It's the disparity that disturbs me.

[Inanna]

Cerin, while the disparity is disturbing, what is more disturbing is this:

"And yet we wonder why she is not taken as seriously as the man who is sitting there in a suit, which renders his body discreetly off-limits to his co-workers."

My sister gives a "how to address marginal constituents talk" in police academies in India. I attended one of them. One man actually said that "if women wear clothes without sleeves, then they how can I work alongside them? They distract me."
(Let me add that he is talking about a sleeveless kurta which goes down to the thighs, and is worn over loose pantaloons, and a dupatta/stole which is pinned over a the kurta over a woman's chest. Yes, pinned. Gawd forbid boobies' shapes are visible!)

I loved my sisters' response: "If men are so easily distracted, they should stay home. We women will run the country."

[elengil]

I am greatly disturbed by the disparity in how men and women are treated.

[elengil]

"If men are so easily distracted, they should stay home. We women will run the country."

Exactly

[yovargas]

Cerin, I find so many things about your post baffling that I hardly know how to respond, but more than anything I am gobsmacked that you would equate a person presenting themselves in an attractive fashion as the equivalent of a prostitute "selling their wares" and I suggest that if that is where your mind goes, than it is you who have the disparity in how you view men and women. Because I have seen many, many men, specially those with fit, athletic bodies who proudly wear clothing that accentuates their attractive bodies, even in the office environment I work in, and I very strongly doubt that if you were to see a man dressed in such a fashion, you would think that he looks like he is putting his body for sale.

[Alatar]

I agree with Yov, and furthermore, would point out that the purpose of a Suit is to make a man look better. Very few men look better in casual wear than they do in a well tailored suit. It gives us wider shoulders, disguises or minimizes our weight and pretty much make us better looking. On the other hand, you have to be pretty well built to look good in jeans and a tight shirt.

[yovargas]

I considered making the same point - a well-tailored suit is one of the sexiest things a man can wear!

[elengil]

May I direct y'alls attention to exhibits A and B

Hidden text.

swoon

[Frelga]

"If men are so easily distracted, they should stay home. We women will run the country."

Exactly

This.

I have worked with men who, objectively, fit the criteria of conventional attractiveness, and I can assure you that they could show up to work in Speedos without me being distracted in the slightest. As it is, they come to work in polos, or button downs that can be quite flattering, and my passions are not inflamed.

Correspondingly, these men somehow managed to spend their working days in proximity to my own feminine charms while maintaining a perfectly professional demeanor. This, even though we have traveled together on business trips, or worked in an enclosed server room.

I am forced to come to a conclusion that if a man can't remain professional around a woman wearing season appropriate clothing, he needs to take a grip on himself, somewhere far away from me, until he is fit to be allowed in the civilized society.

[yovargas]

Okay, I'll admit - it might be too distracting for me to work closely at the office with a really attractive guy in a speedo.

[Inanna]

As an aside, I have to mention that that quote sounds much better in Hindi. (Keeping aside the fact that my sis is spectacular; when she sister says this in formal Hindi, wearing a saree and then throws the pallu on her shoulders while saying it addressing a room full of men - the impact is.....)

[elengil]

Okay, I'll admit - it might be too distracting for me to work closely at the office with a really attractive guy in a speedo.

Admittedly, I think having a co-worker wear a speedo would be disruptive in terms of the lengths I'd be attempting to go to *not* to have to see it...

As an aside, I have to mention that that quote sounds much better in Hindi.

With nothing to compare it to, I have to point out it still sounds pretty bad-ass in English.

[Maria]

I don't think men look better in suits. Suits just seem stuffy and uncomfortable to me, and to see someone in a suit just implies that they are willing to put up with far too much clothing for the sake of some nebulous fashion statement.

My husband had to wear a suit the first few years of his civilian employment, and hated every minute of it. When they finally relaxed to business casual, he was delighted. Now that they are allowing more and more actual casual days, he's even happier. If he has to take a day off, he always schedules it on the *non* casual days. He gleefully told me just this morning that the whole next two weeks are "casual" days at work.

He'd really like to wear one of his kilts to work, but heard that one of the higher ups was specifically against the wearing of kilts to work. That doesn't seem fair. The women wear dresses sometimes. He should be able to wear a kilt!

My job has been completely casual wear for the whole 23 years I've been here... so I don't have any gripes about my clothing options here at work.