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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:38 pm 
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It depends on what you were trying to accomplish, Alatar.

I think as an experiment it was a success, in that there are clear and convincing results.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:40 pm 
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of Vinyamar
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Yes, I suppose that's true! Way to take a positive out of a negative Faramond! :)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:57 pm 
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Al, could you please consider my post - the one in which I quoted data - and tell me how you think that's a "failed" response to your posted article?
And River's post?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:28 am 
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Al, what would you consider a success?

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:46 am 
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We might have n easier time giving you what you want if you ask for it. Unless you're using us as labrats...which is pretty unethical if you didn't get consent first.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:49 am 
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https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/im-never-going-to-do-a-nazi-salute-again-promises-hook-36331313.html

This is the guy the thread started off with. In a way this is really off topic but man this is so weird it has to be posted.

I think it's safe to say this guy is a broadcasting looby.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:51 am 
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River wrote:
We might have n easier time giving you what you want if you ask for it. Unless you're using us as labrats...which is pretty unethical if you didn't get consent first.


Oh, but he did ask for it, at the start of the thread. He was quite explicit, really.

Whether it was a realistic request is another matter.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:52 am 
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Could you please define "it"?

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:53 am 
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Third person singular pronoun


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:00 am 
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Oh yes, my son adored that game when he was about three. He did not pretend that it was a constructive contribution to a conversation, however.

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:02 am 
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"Quite explicit" is probably an exaggeration, but -- I mean, it was clear to me Alatar wanted people to consider other viewpoints, to consider things outside their usual frame of reference. The title of the thread at least makes that somewhat explicit, right? The funny thing is barely anyone even answered the question Alatar answered. Did anyone actually say if they thought the guy should or shouldn't be fired? The reaction was sort of -- visceral. One poster even went to another board to swear at Alatar! Well, visceral reaction happen a lot in threads. Especially around something like rape. No surprise there.

I think Alatar should have tried this with something a little less ambitious.

By the way, I am absolutedly *delighted* with all the agreeing and IAWXing and whatXsaiding that went on in a thread called "Escaping the Echo Chamber". It's almost zen in a way. Except it's really not, and that's an offensive religious appropriation.


Last edited by Faramond on Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:08 am 
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Frelga wrote:
Oh yes, my son adored that game when he was about three. He did not pretend that it was a constructive contribution to a conversation, however.


I don't think I was talking much when I was three. Back then I was only saying things like "moo-moon". Childhood lycanthropy, you know. But I grew out of it by 8. Except for the beard.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:08 am 
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We welcome posters of all species and levels of development.

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:15 am 
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You know, my definition was really half-assed. It's not third-person as much as referring to an object or thing or concept, is it? Anyway, to be explicit, in this case it = escaping the echo chamber.

In other words, Alatar was asking people to try to escape the echo chamber. What that actually means is up for debate, but whatever it means I don't think it happened here.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:08 am 
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not something I would recommend
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I disagree.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:59 am 
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yovargas wrote:
I disagree.

Me too. I think it still counts as third person.

Kidding aside, I still want to hear Al describe what he would describe as a successful outcome.

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:23 am 
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yovargas wrote:
I disagree.


An anti-echo!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:24 am 
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I think a successful outcome would have been people attempting to see the other viewpoint rather than reinforcing their own. Most recent example was Inanna's link (although I'm not singling her out). On any other thread on this board, I'd expect to see that link posted. But here, where I'm asking people to try to cross the aisle and look back, its just an argument against the topic, like I somehow need to be convinced not to be a rapist. I thought this was clear but I guess its not. I'll try again.

Worst Case Scenario:

Poster X posts article Poster Y (and Posters A-W and Z) disagrees with
Poster Y explodes in anger at Poster X for being a Nazi/Pervert/Asshole
Poster A says "Yeah it was pretty terrible"
Poster B posts article categorically refuting every point
Posters C-W and Z all clap each other on the back and say "We knew we were right"

Ideal scenario:

Poster X posts article Poster Y (and Posters A-W and Z) disagrees with
Poster Y reads the article and looks for points of agreement. Highlights one or two and tries to find common ground
Poster A chimes in with agreement in principle on some of them if not all
Posters B-W and Z all get involved, discussing how the issue could be better handled if people were less one-eyed.

Realistic scenario:
Something between the two I guess, closer to the Ideal, further from the worst case. I think its pretty clear where we landed.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:42 pm 
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I gave up on it a while back, but then I'm very bad at any kind of confrontation.

Sent from a tiny phone keyboard via Tapatalk - typos inevitable.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:21 pm 
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not something I would recommend
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Alatar wrote:
Worst Case Scenario:

Poster X posts article Poster Y (and Posters A-W and Z) disagrees with
Poster Y explodes in anger at Poster X for being a Nazi/Pervert/Asshole
Poster A says "Yeah it was pretty terrible"
Poster B posts article categorically refuting every point
Posters C-W and Z all clap each other on the back and say "We knew we were right"

Ideal scenario:

Poster X posts article Poster Y (and Posters A-W and Z) disagrees with
Poster Y reads the article and looks for points of agreement. Highlights one or two and tries to find common ground
Poster A chimes in with agreement in principle on some of them if not all
Posters B-W and Z all get involved, discussing how the issue could be better handled if people were less one-eyed.

Realistic scenario:
Something between the two I guess, closer to the Ideal, further from the worst case. I think its pretty clear where we landed.


Do you feel that you tried to find common ground with those who disagreed with you in this thread?

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