Escaping the Echo Chamber

[Impenitent]

Yes, indeed, and it's abhorrent but it's not Alatar making that insinuation. He is reporting on it.

And in view of the state of the world, it is responsible parenting to arm our daughters with knowledge of the risk. Not BLAME them for the fact that, like the majority of other women, they risk harassment and sexual assault out there, but ARM them to be vigilant.

We have a right to live free of this fear, but having that right is cold comfort when one has been victimised.



Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

[Nin]

I thought about this during the night (sleeplessness, welcome) and I thought what bothers me is the difference: I would also tell my boys not to walk alone in dark park at night, for fear of being attacked and robbed. Or to lock their bikes. Or not to have drunken sex. And somehow this shows what I think should be recommendations of being carefully: the same for everybody, not specifically female.

And I rather see perpetuating the expectation that women behave differently as a perpetuation of the culture entitling men.

[Alatar]

So, this was a very interesting experiment for me, and one that troubles me a bit. I expected that people would try to make their own point rather than try to see mine, that's the nature of online discourse nowadays. I also knew this was a trigger issue, otherwise there would have been no point. Reading through the thread, pretty much nobody bar Impy and Nin attempted to engage with the central point, that yes it sucks, but women have to be more careful than guys, and that ignoring that is dangerous. Instead of engaging with that I was personally accused of victim blaming, and as Impy pointed out, I was the one engaged with, not the two women making the same observations. It was constantly highlighted how wrong I was to attempt to even imply that women should at any time be careful, because they have a right not to be. Frelga even made the trek over to B77 because the filter here didn't allow her to fully express her disgust with me.

And you guys know me. Over 10 years, most of you. Yet, despite that, and despite having a pretty good idea of the content of my character, nobody was willing to even try to reach common ground. Instead, the past 4 pages have been attempting to show me the error of my ways and my presumably male-driven inability to understand why I was being an offensive asshole. I find it telling that the only people to come to my defense were two non-Americans. It makes me think that the divide in your political spectrum is just a symptom of the incredible divide in American psyche and the complete inability or unwillingness to look for common ground with those you disagree with.

As for why it troubles me. Ireland will next year be plunged into the first serious discussion on abortion in decades, and I despair for the level of discourse we face.

[yovargas]

Reading through the thread, pretty much nobody bar Impy and Nin attempted to engage with the central point, that yes it sucks, but women have to be more careful than guys, and that ignoring that is dangerous.

I was very much trying to engage with that point. Just because I was respectfully trying to point out the problem with that thinking instead of just agreeing doesn't mean I wasn't engaging it. Do you feel you engaged the responses of those you disagreed with?

[Alatar]

Not sure what you're getting at Yov?

[yovargas]

Sorry, hit Submit too quickly.

[Alatar]

Honestly, I felt like everyone tried to steer the discussion into the point they were trying to make rather than addressing the issue I raised. I didn't mention strawmen, because it feels inflammatory, but it seemed I spent most of my time defending against statements I never made.

I engaged where possible while trying to avoid letting the discussion move away from the central tenet.

[Dave_LF]

I find it telling that the only people to come to my defense were two non-Americans.

Hey; what am I, chopped liver?

Going back to the topic, I have an idea. In the spirit of deal-making, I present a proposal on behalf of all men: we will never again say anything that could in any way be construed to imply that women are to blame for rape, but in exchange, you have to do the same thing for us. We don't like being blamed for something we didn't do either. Instead, let's all just agree to blame the rapists.

(for the record, we're reasonable people here and I don't think we've really see either behavior in these threads, but both practices are endemic in the wider world)

[Alatar]

Sorry Dave!

[Dave_LF]

No big deal, Al.

And I rather see perpetuating the expectation that women behave differently as a perpetuation of the culture entitling men.

I pretty much agree with everything you wrote, Nin, but this makes me scratch my head a bit (and I don't mean to pick on you, I've heard the same thing several times already). We all agree that women face a different set of risks than men with regard to sexual assault. Nobody approves of that reality, but given that it exists, doesn't it follow that they will need to take more and different precautions? There seems to be an unspoken belief that to acknowledge the reality in any way is tantamount to condoning it--that altering your behavior to defend yourself from rape the way you would from a tornado or an earthquake demotes it from a moral evil to a natural one. Or that adapting to the facts on the ground will prevent society from taking steps to change them. But really, what more should society do? Rape is illegal. It's stigmatized, more so than almost every other crime; even murder, depending on the details. Schools spend an enormous amount of effort "educating" everybody that no means no. We all agree rape is bad. We all want to stop it. But like every other crime we hate, it still happens sometimes, and it probably always will.

(I feel like I'm ending this post in the middle, but I'm not sure how to finish the thought...)

[yovargas]

I've been trying to make several points as to why sexual assault is different from tornadoes, earthquakes, and gang fights.

One is that of judgment. No matter what precautions women do or do not take, when rape happens, they are told "you shouldn't have been doing X". As Inanna tried to point out, there are places where showing your hair or your ankles is considered "careless". I imagine women in those cultures are vastly more careful and cautious about how they interact with men than Western woman are. Do you think that as a result, rape is less common? I doubt it. I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually more common, actually.

That's the problem. Every woman in America could start wearing head to toe covering, never go outside at night, only ever go places in groups, ect ect ect. But rape would still happen and the woman would still get judged for not being careful enough.

Given that reality, judging this woman for being "foolish" and "careless" is, in my opinion, cruel and thoughtless. Women have to live their lives. If some do not choose to live theirs in constant fear, they should not be shamed for it.

[Dave_LF]

I hear that, but at the same time... murder still happens too, despite all laws to the contrary, and all the precautions people take. And murder victims absolutely get blamed for going into that dark alley, or flashing their wallets, or agreeing to meet that person from the internet without researching him first, or whatever. Don't they? Why is it different?

And before anyone says "but merely going out in public isn't the same as that," that's not what I'm talking about. I'm thinking specifically of Al's story. In my assessment, going to a hotel room with a stranger while drunk ranks very close on the scale of risky behavior to meeting a guy from Craigslist in a dark alley to buy a TV.

[Sunsilver]

Because the rules for murder victims apply to EVERYONE not just one half of the population!

I live alone. If I were in a Muslim country, I wouldn't be able to go out my front door without being escorted by a male relative.

Of course, I do things some people think are risky. One of my favourites is to take my dogs walking along the trails through the woods at the local military base. Should I deny myself that pleasure because there might be a predatory male out there?? Maybe I should, though the dogs do give me a certain amount of protection. Whether they would protect me if I was attacked, i really don't know.

[Nin]

But really, what more should society do? Rape is illegal. It's stigmatized, more so than almost every other crime; even murder, depending on the details. Schools spend an enormous amount of effort "educating" everybody that no means no. We all agree rape is bad. We all want to stop it.

Dave, I am not thinking that much about rape. But the level "under" it: harassment, being touched, not being safe in public space, groping....rape is the "supreme" risk (my english is poor and I am working a lot today, so if I'm not clear, excuse me, please), but there are so many other, lighter forms that women can encounter. And it's mainly for those, that a whole different context of behavior is expected from women. Don't dress like that, don't smile at strangers, if you walk past that building site, don't be astonished to be cat-called, don't get into that packed subway wagon, don't wear skirts in a beer tent... etc etc.

Also the stigma on rape is recent and it is probably not as universal as you feel it is. For centuries, rape was not considered a crime against a woman but either against her father or her husband - because the rapist spoiled his "goods". For a rapist to escape punishment, marrying his victim was (and still is, in some countries) a possibility to escape judgement.

And whatever money school spends, there is also still a whole glorification discourse about men having affairs, a whole television and advertising narrative about women being objects - the election of a man like Trump shows that there is a lot more that society could do. And there are many examples like that: remember DSK?

Sorry, I think society could do a whole lot more. And lowering the level of sexual entitlement for men in general seems the right path to me. This is also why I reject the idea of special precautions required from women as main or even secondary narrative. For centuries women have adapted their behavior and it has not stopped sexual harassment. How about attacking the problem from the other end this time?

The other question about how we debate and how much we are ready to listen to each other, that is still a whole different level which I feel has not been addressed at all. I can say, Al that for me this message board has become an American place and I feel that with many ideas I would be out of place and hold them back. Regularly I hesitate about coming back at all. But then, it's the last message board left of the days of glory and I am a nostalgic elderly woman.

[Impenitent]

EDIT: seems i missed a good handful of posts while typing (on this tidiculous tiny keyboard). Apologies for not referencing the last 6 or so posts.
-----------

Dave, I have a lot to say about this but it's almost midnight here after a 16 hour day so i have zero energy.

But it comes to this:

"Altering your behaviour to defend yourself" sounds so reasonable and sensible. In fact, I posted earlier about urging my daughter to be cognizant of these risks and to act with commonsense to minimize them where she can (and I add here, and emphasize, to do so within the constructs of her own values and ethics).
But that can be turned upside down to infer that if a woman is harrassed or assaulted that perhaps she didn't do all that she could to reduce her risk. Or even to PREVENT her risk.
As if that were possible!
Because if she didn't do it ALL, then clearly there was some risk, some window left open, she was lax, she didn't take it seriously, perhaps she was tempting fate...in fact, she was irresponsible...it was het fault because, face it, she should have known she was taking a risk...

As if she could avoid it!

Do you see how it can be flipped? Teaching our girls to take steps to avoid risk can so easily be turned into criticism that she clearly didn't take / defied the steps. Victim blaming.

Simplistic, but that's what we see all the time in the media.

And as a mother who has consistently urged her daughter to minimise her risk, I'm fully cognizant of the hypocrisy.

And also, making rape illegal is not the same as working to eradicate rape culture. That requires zealous, consistent, full commitment to upstander behaviour throughout society, most particularly by men to call out the behaviour of other men.

It's another one if those "in an ideal society" statements.

We do not, and never will, live in a utopia. It is pragmatic for our behaviour to reflect this, even as we continue working for change.

Maimonides said, "It is not yours to finish the work, but neither are you free to desist from it."

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

[Dave_LF]

Nin, I found myself nodding along with everything you said, but there there was this:

For centuries women have adapted their behavior and it has not stopped sexual harassment. How about attacking the problem from the other end this time?

I understand it hasn't always been that way, but harassment and rape are both illegal and thoroughly stigmatized now; or at least they are in the places we live. How does that not count as attacking the problem from the other end?

[Dave_LF]

Wow; I can't keep up suddenly. Impy, you're right, asking people to take precautions can be turned around into saying it's your fault for not taking enough of them when things go wrong. But that's not an argument against suggesting precautions, it's an argument against assigning blame incorrectly.

[Sunsilver]

Excellent post, Nin! What/who is DSK? I am not familiar with that abbreviation.

I just saw a post by a FB friend, with her 'me too' confession. She was raped when she was 9 years old. When she confessed this to someone in a position of authority in her church, in the hopes of seeking prayer and healing for the emotional trauma, she was told she probably 'encouraged' it in some way!

THAT is the sort of attitude that needs changing!

[Dave_LF]

Because the rules for murder victims apply to EVERYONE not just one half of the population!

Not equally, by any means. Someone living in south Chicago has to be a whole lot more careful than I do. I did myself when I used to live in a sketchy part of Madison. Big, imposing men are safer than scrawny ones, etc. But why does it even matter? If the reality is that men and women face unequal risks, then what? We should pretend otherwise so we can say things are fair?

I just saw a post by a FB friend, with her 'me too' confession. She was raped when she was 9 years old. When she confessed this to someone in a position of authority in her church, in the hopes of seeking prayer and healing for the emotional trauma, she was told she probably 'encouraged' it in some way!

THAT is the sort of attitude that needs changing!

I doubt you will get any disagreement on that.

[yovargas]

But the discussion was not "here are some helpful tips for women who are concerned about assault". It was "That rape victim sure was reckless and foolish. I mean, what did she expect?"