First of all, I don't want to tell jokes at all, let alone hurtful ones. What I am questioning is not the right to tell harmful jokes (which is why I consider this a strawman Prim). I am questioning whether some of the jokes being categorised as harmful actually are. As I have stated before, it is very often the far left who believe they are the arbiters of this, not the supposedly marginalised. In case my post above wasn't clear I'll post it here again for the benefit of Prim, River and anyone else who insists on misinterpreting my position:elengil wrote: Alatar,
It occurs to me your approach comes across as the little middle-ground guy who just wants to be able to tell jokes that were told for years without being told why they may hurt people, but is being ground into the dirt by the heel of the Great Liberal Machine that is grinding over the top of all those good-hearted tell-it-like-it-is down-to-earth folk who just want to live their lives.
1. I believe in treating people with respect and common courtesy
2. I believe in using language, policies or measures that are intended to avoid offense or disadvantage to members of particular groups in society.
3. I believe that many of these current issues are excessive and unwarranted
4. I don't have a precise definition of where I believe the line between common courtesy end excessive political correctness lies, but I have a gut feeling for when its been crossed that may be different to yours.
5. I strongly believe that comedy is one of the most important bastions of free speech and should be protected as such
6. I know that we are not being politically censored, but the upshot is the same for a comic who can't get a gig because s/he has been blacklisted.
7. I believe that the massive swing to extremes is just as prevalent on the left as the right, and both sides seem to think they're actually the moderates.
Nowhere do I state that we should promote harmful jokes. Please stop attributing beliefs to me that I do not hold. I do believe in free speech, and in the right to protest. What I'm saying is that if we start censoring* comedy, which by its nature often uses tools such as hyperbole and shock values to make observations, we lose a fundamental aspect of critical thinking. When John Stewart or Trevor Noah or SNL use hyperbole and shock value to make gags about Trump and co, that's accepted as valuable political commentary. When Joan Rivers cracked jokes about maids heading to Mexico for abortions in the 70's it was considered shocking and in terrible taste, but it highlighted a political issue in a way that 100 political speeches could never achieve.
*To save me typing this every time. Please read "censorship" in the sense of suppression of free speech through market forces, rather than throwing someone in jail. They're both censorship.
I think you'll find that I do.elengil wrote: It is a very interesting dichotomy you project in your replies, whether you intend to do so or not. You speak of Liberals as if they are a single conglomerate force, rather than simply the sum of individuals who strongly feel that that kind of 'jovial harm' that people think is harmless is nothing of the sort. They have a voice now whereas they didn't before. As has been stated already, these things were always harmful, but it is only recently that those being harmed had the voice to state it without themselves coming to physical harm or death.
You never treat Conservatives or the far Right as the same kind of singular group that you box the Left into.
I find the extreme right and extreme left of American politics equally disturbing, particularly because the lack of a willingness to accept common ground is widening the gap further every day.The real irony here is that once again "Escaping the Echo Chamber" becomes an echo chamber of groupthink telling the poor deluded Irishman that he's just either not smart, not moral or not educated enough to hold a different opinion to the majority here. I thought we were better than that.
Its ok Yov, I'm going nowhere, although discussions like this do feel like an exercise in futility most of the time. ETA: I'm in London for the next few days with limited Internet, so I'm not flouncing off.
Although I do a pretty good flounce...
