Escaping the Echo Chamber

[Alatar]

Yes but most people of the internet don't start every post with "IMO". I always assume people are stating their opinion rather than undeniable fact.

[yovargas]

An IMO might have helped slightly but still wouldn't have gotten rid of the obnoxiously commanding tone. "Women - Be X, else I won't want you" is only the tiniest bit less assholish than "Women - Be X, else no one will want you", regardless of the X.

Not to mention the seeming assumption that it should be important to women that this man desire them. "A good woman is one who spends her time making sure I find her attractive."

[elengil]

Yes but most people of the internet don't start every post with "IMO". I always assume people are stating their opinion rather than undeniable fact.

While that's true, there's still a difference between "How To Be A Beautiful Woman" - which is presented as a list of standards women "should" strive to attain, and "What I Find Beautiful" which is implicitly accepting that not all people will agree or that not all women need to change to meet this standard.

How To Be A Beautiful Woman..., does he think he's writing a manual for us?? Like If you want to be beautiful, here's your checklist?

Actually, it's not even that, it's that in stating it as How To Be A Beautiful Woman he is just flat out assuming that his opinion is other people's opinion.

[Alatar]

Oh I don't think there's any question that this guy is a douche. I guess i'm just trying to see past that to the actual content of his "List".

[elengil]

Oh I don't think there's any question that this guy is a douche. I guess i'm just trying to see past that to the actual content of his "List".

I'm actually much more angrily amused by the last point on his list than the first.

[yovargas]

As a bit of a tangential aside, this kind of attitude is definitely not exclusive to how men treat women as I see it all the time among gay men. Tons of gay dating profiles will do things like make sure you know up front who they do not want to talk to, without bothering to explain why I would want to in the first place. As if their desirability is such a given that all you need to know is whether or not you are lucky enough to qualify for the honor of speaking to them.
(Phrases like "no femmes or fatties" were notoriously common for a long time in profiles, though thankfully most guys seem to have now gotten the message that things like this make you look like a huge asshole.) (Have I mentioned that dating sucks??)

[River]

As a bit of a tangential aside, this kind of attitude is definitely not exclusive to how men treat women as I see it all the time among gay men. Tons of gay dating profiles will do things like make sure you know up front who they do not want to talk to, without bothering to explain why I would want to in the first place. As if their desirability is such a given that all you need to know is whether or not you are lucky enough to qualify for the honor of speaking to them. :eyeroll:

Yes. It's the weird, sort of confrontational aspect of that list that ruffles me more than the existence of it.

I wonder if this guy's approach works, what kind of women he attracts, and how he ultimately treats them. I wonder the same about the gay men you're talking about too. I have this sneaking suspicion that a lot of the misogyny getting called out these days is also, to a certain extent, mirrored in the gay community. Relationships involve a lot of power dynamics, especially if even a hypothetical possibility of sex is involved.

[Dave_LF]

That sort of approach works just fine on a subset of women, which is why it exists in the first place. And it also contains a certain element of the Trumpian "being hated is better than being overlooked" strategy.

[Frelga]

Oh I don't think there's any question that this guy is a douche. I guess i'm just trying to see past that to the actual content of his "List".

I'm actually much more angrily amused by the last point on his list than the first.

I'm not even mad. I did wonder if he'd be happier describing his ideal man. There's nothing unusual about a man being attracted to a slimmer, more boyish shape in women, but if that's the first thing that pops to mind, what I hear is "a woman should not look too much like a woman". Which is why I asked for a show of hands.

And that's my controversial opinion for this hour.

[elengil]

There's nothing unusual about a man being attracted to a slimmer, more boyish shape in women, but if that's the first thing that pops to mind, what I hear is "a woman should not look too much like a woman". Which is why I asked for a show of hands.

Oh see and I don't at all equate thin with being boyish, necessarily. I mean I know a lot of times they're put together, like with the current model trend, but to me thin is just the other way of saying "not fat". Thin doesn't have to mean flat-chested, just flat-stomached.

[Frelga]

Yeah, but boobs are basically lumps of fat, and the body sheds that fat before it flattens the belly. There are exceptions to every rule, of course, but big boobs on a thin frame are an exception or a result of surgery. You can still have a slim waist (my friend used to be able to span mine with her hands, ages ago) but thin ain't gonna be the first word to describe you.

[Dave_LF]

There's nothing unusual about a man being attracted to a slimmer, more boyish shape in women, but if that's the first thing that pops to mind, what I hear is "a woman should not look too much like a woman". Which is why I asked for a show of hands.

Then for the record, if I had a list, "thin" would not be the first thing on it. But I don't, and in my experience, any such list promptly falls apart when confronted with real people anyway. What's that thing they say again? "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."

[yovargas]

Yeah, but boobs are basically lumps of fat, and the body sheds that fat before it flattens the belly. There are exceptions to every rule, of course, but big boobs on a thin frame are an exception or a result of surgery. You can still have a slim waist (my friend used to be able to span mine with her hands, ages ago) but thin ain't gonna be the first word to describe you.

To paraphrase a famous poet, when a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist and a round thing in their face, many gentlemen get sprung.

el is right, most (American?) men would just mean "small waist" when they say "thin", aka not over weight. There are certainly plenty women out there who have natural feminine curves while keeping a flat belly, much like some men naturally have flat bellies and broad shoulders.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Oh I don't think there's any question that this guy is a douche. I guess i'm just trying to see past that to the actual content of his "List".

I'm actually much more angrily amused by the last point on his list than the first.

Whereas, if it were just "listen well" rather than "listen to men" it would be high on my list (as well as be high on my list of things that I strive to do well myself).

[Frelga]

True, but broad shoulders are muscle, not fat.

Eta: er, that was to yov

[elengil]

Frelga: I guess I'm trying to say from the point of view of a man who would post such a list, boobs are not the same as fat, even if they are literally fat. Thin is not the same as flat-chested. I see this list as someone whose first priority is "not a fat girl", not that he's stating his highest preference is for boyish figures.

[Frelga]

I was looking at Oscars photos to find some examples, but then realized that everyone is corseted and pushed up in a way that is not representative of their actual shape.

But completely OT - did you see Billy Porter's gown? That was a brilliant look.

[yovargas]

But completely OT - did you see Billy Porter's gown? That was a brilliant look.

Hyper-OT but OMG AMAZING!!

[elengil]

has to look it up because totally clueless and ZOMG WOW that dress is something else!!

https://twentytwowords.com/billy-porter ... ux-oscars/

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That headline is incorrect. He didn't wear a gown instead of a tux, he wore a gown and a tux at the same time!


ETA: And, at least based on the pictures that I have seen, pulled it off magnificently.