Escaping the Echo Chamber

[yovargas]

There is a huge difference between holding a woman responsible, and saying she could exercise greater care.

Which I would say Inanna herself acknowledged and agreed with on the very post you're quoting and yet you still seem to be arguing as if she hadn't.

[Alatar]

Really? That's not how I read it.

Sensible advice.

Because this is equivalent to teaching your kids sensible stuff (what you claim this thread is about); in contrast, the radio host saying the woman should have been careful is about the public discourse on holding a woman responsible (what you actually started this thread about). And the two are actually different.

But the "Sensible advice" is exactly what we've been arguing for over the last 5 pages, and we keep being told that sensible advice is tantamount to victim blaming. The radio host saying the woman should/could have been more careful is different how? Because its after the fact instead of before?

To go back to the original comparison, if my Mom tells me not to walk down dark alleys or I'll get mugged, and I get mugged in a dark alley, is she not right to say I should have been more careful?

[yovargas]

Really? That's not how I read it.

Sensible advice.

Because this is equivalent to teaching your kids sensible stuff (what you claim this thread is about); in contrast, the radio host saying the woman should have been careful is about the public discourse on holding a woman responsible (what you actually started this thread about). And the two are actually different.

But the "Sensible advice" is exactly what we've been arguing for over the last 5 pages, and we keep being told that sensible advice is tantamount to victim blaming. The radio host saying the woman should/could have been more careful is different how? Because its after the fact instead of before?

Nope. I mean, I think it might be what you think we've been arguing about, but it's not. Your example, I think, makes it easy to point out the distinction.

To go back to the original comparison, if my Mom tells me not to walk down dark alleys or I'll get mugged....

This is the "Sensible advice" part. I'm pretty sure nobody is arguing against it. Most would likely even recommend it.

...and I get mugged in a dark alley, is she not right to say I should have been more careful?

This is the controversial part. This is no longer about "sensible advice". This is now about a judgmental "I told you so". You and others may think that it is a good thing to do that. I, and others, do not. That's what we're arguing about.

(I mean, really, isn't it just kind of a dick move to go all "I told you so!" to somebody who just got mugged? Do people who go around saying "I told you so" do so to actually try and be helpful? Is it ever actually helpful?)

[Alatar]

I would fully expect my Mom to say I should have been more careful, cause I should have. I took a stupid risk and it cost me. Does that mean she doesn't have sympathy? Of course she does. Does that mean I'm to blame and not the mugger? Of course not.

[yovargas]

There's about a million things I want to say in response to that but I don't have the time to say them all so I'll just say I think this is a good, productive discussion.

[Inanna]

I would fully expect my Mom to say I should have been more careful, cause I should have. I took a stupid risk and it cost me. Does that mean she doesn't have sympathy? Of course she does. Does that mean I'm to blame and not the mugger? Of course not.

Yes, your Mom saying it to you would be between your Mom and you, and would be fine or not fine, depending on your relationship with her.

However, a radio host bringing it up when discussing the woman's rape case is different from that woman's Mom saying it to her. Because, when the social discourse always ends up talking about how the woman should have been more careful, in context of a crime that has already occurred, it translates to women being told it is their fault.

In contrast, the posters you showed are preemptively telling women and men how to act safe, are not discussing it in the context of a crime that just occurred, and are impersonal. That is a far better strategy, and equivalent to you AND ME teaching our daughters safe tactics, as opposed to a public personality bringing up the victim's stupidity.

Should people be able to treat ALL advice objectively, irrespective of who it comes from, and not construe blame etc from it? Sure. But WE DON'T. All people have biases in how information is processed, and source bias is one of the biggest. And after generations of being told that it is the woman who... guess what, folks can be a mite sensitive about it.

And I agree, this is actual a very frutiful discussion - it has really forced me to think about it.

[Alatar]

Thanks guys!

[Inanna]

Huh?

[Alatar]

I'm just saying thanks for hanging in there and getting to where we're all on the same page finally. From both sides.

[Inanna]

We are? Cool.

[Frelga]

Yes, I do think we are getting somewhere. I wouldn't stick with the conversation as long as I did if I didn't think Al was worth talking to.

[Lalaith]

Funny. This is pretty much the exact thing I'm reading about right now in Brene Brown's latest book Braving the Wilderness. I was thinking (over my lunch break, while reading it) that it would be beneficial to do it as a book study on this messageboard.

It is about the echo chamber, how we stick with family and people we truly care about even when we disagree with them, how we are more segregated with likeminded people and yet more lonely than ever, etc.

[Impenitent]

Much of the discussion is around the obvious - sexual assault, rape, blatant ugliness and aggression that we (parents) warn our children about.

And then there are the kinds of incidents that a woman can never prepare for:

http://www.upworthy.com/these-powerful- ... -must-sees

These are the kinds of behaviours that enrage me, make me feel like I want to cut off bits of offending anatomy - not because they're worse but because they're sneaky and squalid and create a feeling that there's no come back.

You know that old saying, "Look after the pennies and the pounds look after themselves"?

If we as a society can focus on these smaller, squalid, nasty, belittling behaviours that women face daily, attack them to eradicate them, then the behaviours that draw the public attention wouldn't be the threat that they are.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

[Frelga]

What Rose said.

I'm glad we all agree rape is wrong, and I wish to Bema I was being sarcastic, but I've witnessed enough discussions where that was not a given.

Having agreed on that, let's look at what that broadcaster said, as quoted by Al.

She was passed around, went the story. And apparently she went to bed with one guy and he goes out and another guy comes in. She doesn’t want to have relations with the second guy but he forced himself upon her. Awful.

But when you then look deeper into the story you have to ask certain questions. Why does a girl who just meets a fella in a bar go back to a hotel room? She’s only just barely met him. She has no idea of his health conditions, she has no idea who he is, she has no idea what dangers he might pose. But modern day social activity means that she goes back with him. Then is surprised when somebody else comes into the room and rapes her. Should she be raped? Course she shouldn’t. Is she entitled to say no? Absolutely. Is the guy who came in a scumbag? Certainly. Should he go to jail? Of Course. All of those things. But is there no blame now to the person who puts themselves in danger?

There is personal responsibility because it’s your daughter and it’s my daughter.

And so on.

We all know that in a segment of communication including a "but", the signal comes after the but. Everything prior is noise. The noise is there because even that old jackass is aware that he can't just say, "Bitch got what was coming to her." Which is what the signal says.

Now think about a woman who just survived a violent rape. She's injured, traumatized, and now she has to make a stand and try to prove to the world that she was a victim of a crime. The police is not always sympathetic. The court is going to tear her apart and treat every inconsistency that is the result of a painful experience as a lie. And she knows, as we all do, that the signal is going to be, "Bitch got what was coming to her."

Many victims of even violent assault that we have all agree is wrong decline to press charges. It takes immense strength of character to persevere.

All this talk of personal responsibility is there to protect the rapist.

It's time to start parenting out sons, not just our daughters.

[Alatar]

I can see how it reads that way Frelga, but I've listened to this broadcaster for years and it couldn't be further from the truth. He's a gentle old windbag who adores women, always refers to his wife as "the lovely Ingrid" although she's a hardened battleaxe, and has worked almost exclusively with women producers who call him "an absolute Gentleman". "Bitch got what was coming for her" wouldn't even be in his vocabulary. And I know you're not being literal, but even the sentiment would be beyond him. He obviously didn't believe she had it coming to her, but he was very much of the opinion that the modern lifestyle (not her in particular) says she's expected to go back to the room with a stranger (its later than your quote above), and that's wrong. Is he old fashioned? Sure. Does that mean he was blaming her? No.

Now, none of you have the benefit of his history. You're judging him on one isolated incident, which is absolutely your right, and you're even reading a transcript rather than listening to him, which makes every syllable more weighted, like it was a composed speech, rather than a clumsy comment.

All that said, I 100% agree that it would be hard for a woman who had suffered sexual assault to listen to that and not feel judged. I guess my point is, did the punishment fit the crime? If everyone one of us was subject to the court of popular opinion how many of us would survive intact?

A kindly old man who suggests that girls shouldn't be expected to sleep with strangers and should be careful if they do, is fired after decades of service, and yet, a man with 16 accusations of sexual assault and a recording of him bragging about sexual assault can be elected President of America. There's something wrong with this picture.

ETA: And yes, of course we should all be teaching our sons to respect women. I assumed that was a given.

[River]

Al, if you haven't noticed, Trump seems to be immune to things that would bring any other public figure down (DSK, Roger Ailes, and Weinstein all come to mind). He's a rather singular phenomenon and over 50% of the US is not exactly happy about it. So the comparison, though tempting, might not be apt. And as one of the many unhappy Americans, I really wish the rules and conventions that applied to everybody else also applied to our current President. I know that his brash disregard for everything and ability to get away with it is what the ~38% who approve of him admire but this whole Bully-in-Chief thing with a reality show twist (Are we going to war with North Korea? Find out next week on the newest episode of TrumpHouse!) got really old really fast.

There is a tendency, in this age of social media and instant reaction, to rush to judgment without context. This whole thread basically started that way. No introduction to who the broadcaster is and his history. Just "he said this and this happened, discuss". So we did. Sans context because there wasn't any on offer.

[Frelga]

Is people hooking up in bars really a new thing in Ireland?

Why is it always the women's job to see the context, be understanding, and gently educate the very people who are hurting us in every aspect of our lives? Sometimes that's the only way to go in pure self defense, but I don't have any obligation to like it, or to make it easier on them than I have to, for my sake and the sake of people I want to protect.

I don't know if this broadcaster deserved to be fired. His employer thought so. Based on that specific quote, I don't pity him. It was a horrible thing to say.

That want my actual point, but I just had a nice yoga session, and I don't want to damage my chill too much.

[Alatar]

Sex on first date? Yeah, pretty new. Certainly wasn't common when I was in my 20s. I mean, yes it happened, but it was not the norm.

[Frelga]

Huh. It wasn't even new in the ole Soviet Union, which was not only more puritanical than actual Puritan countries, but lacked essentials such as available private space and birth control.

Not that I have ever seen the inside of a bar, but if people went by what I consider prudent, entire industries would be out of business.

[Inanna]

aside: you've never seen the inside of a bar??