It is currently Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:49 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 64 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:10 am 
Offline
of Vinyamar
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:39 pm
Posts: 8423
Location: Ireland
I haven't posted about this because it gets too heated, but Ireland held a referendum yesterday to repeal the 8th Amendment to our constitution. The 8th amendment, in essence, granted life in the womb equal rights to that of the mother, essentially a constitutional ban on abortion. This resulted in many cases where abortion was driven underground, or exported to the UK. Although there were provisions for cases where the mothers life was clearly at risk, there were no options for Fatal Fetal Abnormality, Rape, Incest or many of the other "hard cases". This came to a head a couple of years back when Savita Halappanaver, a 31 year old Indian Dentist resident in Ireland, lost her life due to sepsis brought about by a miscarriage. Although it was clear that she would miscarry, and she requested an abortion, the medical team felt that her life was not in danger, so refused the procedure. Her death due to complications of the miscarriage became a rallying cry for the repeal of the 8th.

Exit polls are reporting that the repeal has been carried by 69% to 31%. Final counts should be out today.

_________________
Image
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:58 am 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 34029
I remember that very sad case, Al. Apparently, some anti-abortion activists in the U.S. were helping to support the referendum and were upset when both Google and Facebook refused to run ads close to the election.

How do you feel, Al, about the apparent result?

_________________
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 12:47 pm 
Offline
of Vinyamar
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:39 pm
Posts: 8423
Location: Ireland
I do think its the right decision. I'm not in the camp of "My Body My Choice", but neither am I in the "Baby Murderers" camp. Like most people I'm somewhere in the middle. At some stage in pregnancy, the fetus becomes a viable human. Drawing that line is the difficulty. An undeveloped fetus should not have the same rights as a fully developed adult. However, I'm not a fan of abortion on demand. What's being proposed for law after repeal is termination up to 12 weeks at will, and after that in cases of FFA, rape and incest. That's probably about the right line I think. Not overly restrictive, but not unrestricted either.

I haven't shared these views on Facebook though. I don't intend to be drawn into an argument. Its just my own "gut instinct".

_________________
Image
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 1:05 pm 
Offline
of Vinyamar
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:39 pm
Posts: 8423
Location: Ireland
Touching tribute

https://twitter.com/carolynmoore_ie/sta ... 4959399938

_________________
Image
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 1:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:41 am
Posts: 5342
Location: In my rose garden
Few issues are more charged than abortion, so I understand your reluctance to discuss your views on FB.

I have a friend in Michigan whose father is a retired surgeon. When Roe vs. Wade was passed, he gave a sigh of relief and said, "Good, now I won't have to repair the liquefied insides of women who've had back alley abortions!"

I'm in the middle re. abortion, too. Up to a certain point, the woman can lose the foetus by a natural miscarriage, and not even be aware she's pregnant. That's not life - that's POTENTIAL life.

What bothers me about the right to life crowd is their lack of support for the baby once it's born. And now in the States, the Republicans are making it even harder for single moms to escape the cycle of poverty, by slashing benefits, and restricting student loans. :x

_________________
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 1:51 pm 
Offline
not something I would recommend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:13 pm
Posts: 13590
Location: Florida
Alatar wrote:
At some stage in pregnancy, the fetus becomes a viable human. Drawing that line is the difficulty.


Understatement of the century. :neutral:

It's because it's so difficult, impossible really, that I think govt should largely stay out of it - this is largely a personal, emotional decision - so I'm glad to hear that such a law is being repealed.

_________________
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:34 pm 
Offline
Meanwhile...
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 14383
Location: Out on the banks
Well, that's progress. How freely is contraception available in Ireland? That seems to be the best way of avoiding terminations that are not medically indicated.

_________________
Image
“It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.”

- Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:36 pm 
Offline
of Vinyamar
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:39 pm
Posts: 8423
Location: Ireland
No limits on contraception. Condoms, the pill and the morning after pill are all freely available.

_________________
Image
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:27 pm 
Offline
not something I would recommend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:13 pm
Posts: 13590
Location: Florida
Freely as in free, or as in with no restrictions?

_________________
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 9:27 pm 
Offline
Meanwhile...
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 14383
Location: Out on the banks
Either way, they'd be ahead of the US, tbh.

_________________
Image
“It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.”

- Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 10:29 pm 
Offline
of Vinyamar
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:39 pm
Posts: 8423
Location: Ireland
With no restrictions. There's a financial cost.

_________________
Image
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:04 pm 
Offline
Meanwhile...
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 14383
Location: Out on the banks
Came across the thread about an Irish woman who very nearly died because of the 8th amendment, and now that I stopped crying over it, I can post a link.

https://twitter.com/InHerIrishShoes/sta ... 5564466177

In a nutshell, she was pregnant with twins when things went south around 16 weeks. For six days after her water broke, the twins still had heartbeat, but the doctors could do nothing except wait for them to die in utero and be spontaneously aborted. On day six, one twin died and was delivered but the placenta stayed inside. The other twin had a heartbeat for another week, and remained in utero while the placenta from the deceased twin rotted inside, making the mother septic. Which the doctors knew was inevitable but could not interfere until her organs were shutting down and she was in the process of dying. So, two weeks of hell, of knowing her babies were slowly dying inside her, and that she could follow and leave her daughter an orphan, and then a week in the ICU and two more weeks of recovery.

Or, once the doctors agreed that they could not save the pregnancy, they could have induced labor immediately with minimum risk and quick recovery.

Will the new law ensure that the first scenario doesn't happen again?

For the record, I am absolutely in the "between the woman and her doctor" camp, on condition that the doctor at all times prioritizes mother's health over her pregnancy, and gives honest and accurate explanation of risks to women who choose to continue the pregnancy at all costs.

_________________
Image
“It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.”

- Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 10:45 pm 
Offline
of Vinyamar
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:39 pm
Posts: 8423
Location: Ireland
Well, the new law has not been written yet, but presumably the answer is yes, because these are the reasons the 8th was repealed. In cases like this, the doctors hands were tied by the requirement to treat the embryo as equivalent to the mother. Until the mother's life was in danger, the fetus could not be aborted.

As I said, I'm not 100% in the "my body, my choice" camp, because that can be abused, and there are times when I believe a healthy child should be protected from a reckless mother. I know this will further convince you that I'm a misogynist, Frelga, but if men could get pregnant I'd say the same. As I said before, I think the propsed new law is a sensible middle ground.

_________________
Image
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 11:00 pm 
Offline
Meanwhile...
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 14383
Location: Out on the banks
If men could get pregnant, I would 100% support their ability to make their own choices.

_________________
Image
“It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.”

- Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:23 pm 
Offline
bioalchemist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:08 am
Posts: 10305
Location: the dry land
Frelga wrote:
Came across the thread about an Irish woman who very nearly died because of the 8th amendment, and now that I stopped crying over it, I can post a link.

https://twitter.com/InHerIrishShoes/sta ... 5564466177

In a nutshell, she was pregnant with twins when things went south around 16 weeks. For six days after her water broke, the twins still had heartbeat, but the doctors could do nothing except wait for them to die in utero and be spontaneously aborted. On day six, one twin died and was delivered but the placenta stayed inside. The other twin had a heartbeat for another week, and remained in utero while the placenta from the deceased twin rotted inside, making the mother septic. Which the doctors knew was inevitable but could not interfere until her organs were shutting down and she was in the process of dying. So, two weeks of hell, of knowing her babies were slowly dying inside her, and that she could follow and leave her daughter an orphan, and then a week in the ICU and two more weeks of recovery.

Or, once the doctors agreed that they could not save the pregnancy, they could have induced labor immediately with minimum risk and quick recovery.

Will the new law ensure that the first scenario doesn't happen again?

For the record, I am absolutely in the "between the woman and her doctor" camp, on condition that the doctor at all times prioritizes mother's health over her pregnancy, and gives honest and accurate explanation of risks to women who choose to continue the pregnancy at all costs.

Here in the US there've been cases of women falling victim to placental abruptions only to have the ER doc refuse to treat them on religious grounds. So they get transferred elsewhere while bleeding out. I do not see the rationale for this approach to medical "treatment" and I'm glad the hospitals I delivered my daughters at took a more humane line. Pregnancy and birth are risky enough without someone putting their religion before the needs of their patient. When the placenta breaks loose, the pregnancy is over. When the water breaks, the pregnancy is over (and in fact it's standard practice to induce labor if it's been more than 24 hours because the risk of infection is high). When the cervix opens up, the pregnancy is over. Leaving a woman in that state to wait for fetal heart tones to stop is just raising the risk of losing her along with the baby. Does the coffin industry write these laws?

_________________
When you can do nothing what can you do?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:12 pm 
Offline
2018 Fitbit Balrog*
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 11570
No, men do. Because THEY don’t bear kids.

_________________
*title copyright: Teremia

'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude (as Merry)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:51 pm 
Offline
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 39744
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
Old saying: "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament." Or at least, entirely legal and easily available. But probably rare, because whole industries would be constantly working on improving pregnancy prevention.

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 3:29 am 
Offline
of Vinyamar
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:39 pm
Posts: 8423
Location: Ireland
And this is why moderates don’t engage in these debates. Or men. Cause we don’t have a uterus we don’t deserve a vote. Sheesh.

_________________
Image
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:14 am 
Offline
Throw me a rope.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:13 pm
Posts: 5991
Location: Deep in Oz
No, you don't get a vote. If you are directly related to the pregnancy or the woman, you certainly get a say and deserve to be heard, but you don't get a vote. If a woman is in right mind and capable of rational thought, no other person should be entitled to override her decision on this.

Sent from a tiny phone keyboard via Tapatalk - typos inevitable.

_________________
Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:30 pm 
Offline
2018 Fitbit Balrog*
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 11570
Al, there is the theoretical argument - Fetuses have viable life, all those who care about children (which includes Men, of course, and women who are not directly involved in that specific situation) should be allowed to have a say if there is *harm* being done to them. And by the theoretical argument, of course, you should have a vote.

But then there is reality and history - and this has repeatedly shown us women that giving men power over decisions that affect us is well, harmful, to us (understatement).

_________________
*title copyright: Teremia

'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude (as Merry)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 64 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group