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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:59 pm 
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Cerin, I agree with your part about intimidation tactics; those things can go wrong very quickly.

However, I am dismayed, dismayed by this widespread belief that it is fine for Nazis to act, vote, set policies, come and have rallies (for any reason), and it is not a positive thing that people protested AGAINST them. That evil can be ignored, and it is fine to ignore it, and as long as we ignore it, it will just go away. To me, one who would be a target, it is heartening to see people standing FOR me when they don't have to.

And this stuff about Jews not having to care because they don't look different is nonsense. And we all know it. They have always looked the same - prosecution, as we all bloody well know, has several outlets and takes various forms. Forget the Nazi's rally not knowing about it - how does the Jewish person feel hearing those words? Doesn't that matter? Don't the people who had to leave the synagogue from the back door matter?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:17 pm 
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Cerin wrote:
*I won't call these punch a Nazi insurrectionists the term they've chosen for themselves, because they aren't anti-fascists (sic), they're just fascists with a different agenda.


What, in your view, is this "different agenda"?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:20 pm 
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Sunsilver wrote:
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Sunny, it's not what you are, it's what you look like.


If that's the case, then the only person they're going to target would be Innana, due to the colour of her skin, unless they spot you wearing outward symbols that identify you as being different.


Sunny. I've had people yell antisemitic slurs at me from across the street. I am identifiable.

And if I could blend in? Are you suggesting that me not wearing symbols of my faith out of fear is any sort of a solution? Because I am emphatically not cool with that.

In my experience, people who stick to liberal media aren't biased as much as they are sheltered.

P. S. I no longer believe that Cerin is posting in good faith.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:24 pm 
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Back in the old days, when people would draw these false equivalencies, I'd ask "and what if the right wingers actually started killing people; would that be enough for you to admit they're worse?" If I was annoyed enough to disregard Godwin's law, I'd add "or what if they were actual, literal Nazis?" I guess I have my answer.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:25 pm 
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I had people throw pennies at me and yell "Jew-begger Jew-begger" when I was growing up as one of the only Jewish families in town. So I guess I am identifiable. :scratch:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:41 pm 
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Yeah, you are, V. :hug;

And that is what makes Nazis evil. You and I may decide that our Jewish heritage is not relevant to our lives (not saying that you did, or that I would), but Nazis only care about your appearance.

Dave, this is from Mike Godwin who coined the Godwin's Law
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:48 pm 
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I can usually spot it if someone's Jewish or, maybe more precisely, of Jewish ancestry. It's subtle. Skin tone, facial features, that sort of thing. So I can believe harassment would happen. It shouldn't, but lots of things that happen shouldn't.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:47 pm 
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Cerin wrote:
These are bullying tactics, plain and simple, and if I oppose them when used against people whose ideas I support, then I must oppose them when used against people whose ideas I oppose.


This. As I’ve said upthread, there’s no alternative position which is consistent. Either you reject your right to use force to silence them, or you must respect their right to use force to silence you.

Inanna wrote:
Cerin, I agree with your part about intimidation tactics; those things can go wrong very quickly.

However, I am dismayed, dismayed by this widespread belief that it is fine for Nazis to act, vote, set policies, come and have rallies (for any reason), and it is not a positive thing that people protested AGAINST them.


I can’t speak for Cerin, but I’m perfectly fine with people protesting against Neo-Nazis. My only objection is with the use of force to silence them.

Or to post something more substantiative, I’ve got two particular issues with the anti-free-speech position on this issue. The first is that it hasn’t worked particularly well when it’s been tried. A number of European countries have a policy of cordon sanitaire where Fascism is banned from political discourse. I’ve never seen any evidence that the far right is currently less-active in these countries than in others (compare, for example, the relative strengths of the far right in Belgium, which has such a policy, and the U.K., which does not). At best, you’ve given the far right the grounds to claim that they’re being suppressed by the wealthy and powerful, which doesn’t make their position look any less sympathetic.

The second argument, and this is a much harder pill to swallow but I think it’s valid, is that making the decision about what’s ‘in’ and ‘out’ of political discourse assumes our society has now reached a level of perfect knowledge about what is good and bad in public policy. Five hundred years ago it was taken for granted that heresy was outside acceptable public discourse and needed to be suppressed. A hundred years ago, there was a similar attitude towards anything resembling gay rights. I seriously doubt that we’ll find the Neo-Nazis to have been right in retrospect, but in the absence of perfect knowledge I think we do just need to let the public debate take its natural course.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:14 pm 
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But wasn't that debate had with all possible bloodshed 70+ years ago?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:15 pm 
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Yes.

Torchlight parades with Nazi salutes through American streets are aggression, whether or not they're carrying weapons (and often they are). The world has already allowed this experiment to run unresisted once, and the results were mass death and indescribable horror.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:01 pm 
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yovargas wrote:
Cerin wrote:
*I won't call these punch a Nazi insurrectionists the term they've chosen for themselves, because they aren't anti-fascists (sic), they're just fascists with a different agenda.


What, in your view, is this "different agenda"?


Judging by the results, I'd say the agenda has been to delegitimize opposing political views (such as favoring enforcement of immigration law, favoring increased scrutiny of travel from countries with jihadist activity, leeriness over penises in the ladies' room, belief that the word 'marriage' had been correctly defined -- the things that were labeled 'hate' during the campaign), and to legitimize violence as a political tactic.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:20 pm 
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Túrin, I am with you on free speech - I think Ann Coulter & Milo should be allowed to speak on campuses. I also think that you should have a debate format with them in these occasions.

But KKK & nazi rallies!! I am forced to feel that you have no idea what you are talking about.

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Last edited by Inanna on Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:37 pm 
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Túrin Turambar wrote:
As I’ve said upthread, there’s no alternative position which is consistent. Either you reject your right to use force to silence them, or you must respect their right to use force to silence you. ..... Five hundred years ago it was taken for granted that heresy was outside acceptable public discourse and needed to be suppressed. A hundred years ago, there was a similar attitude towards anything resembling gay rights.


Okay, while I am generally not on the pro-violence side here, I do think we need to stop acting like Nazi and KKK rallies are ordinary types of speech. By publicly aligning with these groups, you are not merely expressing unpopular political opinions or even merely expressing hateful speech like Westboro church does - you are explictly expressing support of violence towards non-whites and others. The swastika as a symbol means, amongst other things, "I condone the murder of Jews", plain and simple. If I walked outside with a sign that said those vile, evil words, it would not be unreasonable or "fascist" to call that a threat of violence. A man wearing a swastika might as well be shouting those words out loud. And, while I am not convinced that it is a good option either morally or legally or practically, it is entirely understandable to me if some respond to that threat of violence with violence. If the police can't do anything about an armed group of people openly supporting mass murder, I can certainly sympathize with those who take the threat into their own hands.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:33 am 
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Inanna wrote:
But KKK & nazi rallies!! I am forced to feel that you have no puerile-term idea what you are talking about.


Just a friendly reminder to please keep the discussion civil and to avoid using banned words, particularly in sensitive political discussions.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:38 am 
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River wrote:
But wasn't that debate had with all possible bloodshed 70+ years ago?

Yeah, I feel like we've run that experiment and it is not necessary to replicate the results.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:29 am 
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Frelga wrote:
River wrote:
But wasn't that debate had with all possible bloodshed 70+ years ago?

Yeah, I feel like we've run that experiment and it is not necessary to replicate the results.

Killed the PI and the technicians, destroyed the apparatus, destroyed the building, left the rest of the department injured or dead, killed a bunch of firefighters and rescuers, got the surrounding neighborhoods evacuated...yeah, let's not repeat this one. Except for out in the middle of a desert or some other unpopulated area.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:38 am 
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:grouphug: Seriously. I am genuinely distressed by how this must be affecting many of you. :(

I read this:

https://qz.com/1054694/a-philosophical- ... remacists/

And I am curious as to what you all think. I am still mulling it over.


And I am still disturbed by the comment of a man I used to go to church with. He is Jewish, though he has converted to Christianity. In response to something else a friend posted (the joke about God sending us a sign if he wants us to impeach Trump), he said, "Trump is doing a great job thus far.....just saying." When my friend questioned him on that, he replied, "if you don't see any of Trump's accomplishments thus far....i don't think I can convince you."

I cannot wrap my head around this, that he would be so supportive of Trump still after Charlottesville and all of that and being Jewish himself.

:help:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:58 am 
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Never mind what accomplishments Trump has that are worth celebrating...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:35 am 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Inanna wrote:
But KKK & nazi rallies!! I am forced to feel that you have no puerile-term idea what you are talking about.


Just a friendly reminder to please keep the discussion civil and to avoid using banned words, particularly in sensitive political discussions.


Edited. I am sorry.

And I'm bowing out of the discussion for now. I'm tired of crying.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:49 am 
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Sunny. I've had people yell antisemitic slurs at me from across the street. I am identifiable.

And if I could blend in? Are you suggesting that me not wearing symbols of my faith out of fear is any sort of a solution? Because I am emphatically not cool with that.


:cry: Nor am I. I wear a Celtic cross around my neck, and never take it off. And I am not okay with other people having to hide the symbols of their faith, either.
And yes, I guess I am sheltered.

Wow, this thread has taken off since I had to leave for work earlier today! Have some catching up to do.

:grouphug: to all who are hurting. :cry:

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