It is currently Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:40 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 231 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:37 am
Posts: 4688
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Frelga wrote:
What about the rights of Muslim Jihadists?


I can't speak for CG, but I support their rights under the law. Including their rights to freedom of religion, their rights to political speech, their rights to a fair trial if accused of an offence, and any other civil and political rights they may have. As I said upthread, there is an extremist pro-IS Muslim preacher in my suburb. If I saw him, I wouldn't punch him.

On that note, I found this video interesting - former white supremicists talk about how to de-radicalise people. Admittedly there's only two, and a bigger sample size would have been better:



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:01 pm
Posts: 953
Frelga wrote:
What about the rights of Muslim Jihadists?


Yes, even their right top speak must be protected. As I said, I'm a fanatic for the 1st Amendment.

As long as they aren't saying "go out and hit that particular target", as long as the worst they do is indirect or passive advocating violence, then even that is protected.

I don't have to agree with speech to protect it.

_________________
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:42 pm 
Offline
Aagragaah
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 12708
Location: Out on the banks
A strict adherence to principles is admirable when done at personal risk. When it's no skin off your nose and puts others in danger, it's the opposite of admirable.

Anyway. The proposed rally in San Francisco was canceled amid fears for the safety of protesters. The rally in Berkeley tomorrow was denied permit (because the organizers provided no plans for toilets and first aid stations, and submitted a photo of themselves in disguise) but may go ahead anyway, under a weaselly name of anti-Marxism rally. Because THAT is the problem we all face in our lives.

I hope no one will be hurt. I also hope that following Boston and the Bay Area, it will be clear that the Nazis are still a small group of bullies who will not be tolerated. I am perfectly fine with them exercising their free speech rights in their Internet lairs.

_________________
Image
‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:41 am
Posts: 4930
Location: In my rose garden
Frelga, had a Freudian slip moment there where my brain reversed the vowels on 'lairs'... :D

Hope the march is peaceful, and no one gets hurt... :(

And I bloody well hope they get arrested if they show up carrying automatic weapons!! :x

_________________
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:01 pm
Posts: 953
Frelga wrote:
A strict adherence to principles is admirable when done at personal risk. When it's no skin off your nose and puts others in danger, it's the opposite of admirable.


Since I am neither Fascist nor Antifa but am pro free speech, I don't know where you think I fit on your spectrum. Is protecting the free speech of Fascists only admirable if you are a Jew? Is protecting the free speech of Antifa only admirable if you believe in free speech?

Frelga wrote:
Anyway. The proposed rally in San Francisco was canceled amid fears for the safety of protesters. The rally in Berkeley tomorrow was denied permit (because the organizers provided no plans for toilets and first aid stations, and submitted a photo of themselves in disguise) but may go ahead anyway, under a weaselly name of anti-Marxism rally. Because THAT is the problem we all face in our lives.


I heard about that one. Even the SPLC says that those particular groups aren't hate groups, and the SPLC has a vested interest in artificially inflating the hate count. So if they say they aren't a hate group you can be pretty sure they aren't. There are many false positives, few false negatives, in the SPLC list.

Frelga wrote:
I hope no one will be hurt. I also hope that following Boston and the Bay Area, it will be clear that the Nazis are still a small group of bullies who will not be tolerated. I am perfectly fine with them exercising their free speech rights in their Internet lairs.


Boston wasn't connected to Charlottesville either.

_________________
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:01 pm
Posts: 953
I realize, I'm not done with this.

Racial Supremacy is one of the weakest arguments out there. If a person can find no better argument against it than to attack the person who holds that belief, it is a confession of severe inadequacy. Moreover such a person is in NO position to decide what speech should be permissible or forbidden as that person has no concept of speech in the first place. I shouldn't have to say this because I detest this particular argument as well, but it is also a very unpopular argument, so being unable to counter it in any way other than violence (or the violence by proxy of government) is just so pathetic it beggars description.

But if someone still feels violence is appropriate, that opens the flood gates to violence as appropriate by other sides. When violence replaces intelligence, it is not the best argument that works but the most brutal person who wins. Based on the marksmanship at the Republican Baseball Practice, it isn't Antifa who have the skills at violence. If I was a college kid from a middle class background LARPing as a revolutionary with Antifa, I would not want my opponents to feel they have a right to use violence because I would know I would get my ass kicked, if I'm lucky. Yvette Felarca and Eric Clanton are lucky that that the response to their unprovoked violence is legal instead of returning violence for violence. Especially Yvette Felarca. She is a tiny woman assaulting big guys because she knows they know it isn't right to hit a woman (sorry for those who believe in equality but guys still generally think that). One day someone will say "Whatever, this **** wants equality, I'll give her equality."

Finally, for those who seek violence by proxy by the state. It is a sword that can cut both ways. Really it can. Remember, all three branches of the federal government are Republican, as well as ... what is it now ... I know it is a majority, but I forget if it is 2/3 or 3/4, but that many states are majority Republican. Those advocating for shutting down political hate speech, it is the Republicans that are going to get that power if the request is granted. It is Republicans who will be making the decision "now that we have this power, what shall we call hate speech so that it can be shut down." Censorship (like all other government powers) cuts both ways, and can and WILL be used by political opponents and not just political allies.

I have people calling me a fascist simple because I am a fanatic for free speech. Yes, apparently now free speech is a fascist value. This is my problem with Antifa, not anti-Fascism but the small subgroup that is Antifa. They believe in censorship, violence, and EVERYONE who disagrees with them is a "fascist."

_________________
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:37 am
Posts: 4688
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
But if someone still feels violence is appropriate, that opens the flood gates to violence as appropriate by other sides. When violence replaces intelligence, it is not the best argument that works but the most brutal person who wins. Based on the marksmanship at the Republican Baseball Practice, it isn't Antifa who have the skills at violence. If I was a college kid from a middle class background LARPing as a revolutionary with Antifa, I would not want my opponents to feel they have a right to use violence because I would know I would get my ass kicked, if I'm lucky. Yvette Felarca and Eric Clanton are lucky that that the response to their unprovoked violence is legal instead of returning violence for violence. Especially Yvette Felarca. She is a tiny woman assaulting big guys because she knows they know it isn't right to hit a woman (sorry for those who believe in equality but guys still generally think that). One day someone will say "Whatever, this **** wants equality, I'll give her equality."


This, incidentally, is basically Noam Chomsky's argument against Antifa.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:59 pm
Posts: 2196
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/29/16216346/antifa-violence

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450893/antifa-berkeley-violence-harms-political-culture

Just some links for now putting antifa in its place.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:33 pm 
Offline
Just Keep Singin'
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:35 am
Posts: 4645
Location: Boston, MA
Violence begets violence. Full stop, end of story.

_________________
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:41 am
Posts: 4930
Location: In my rose garden
IAWJS

A quote from the second article she linked to. I'm not crazy about the labeling but what it says is true:
"Violent Marxists are evil. Violent fascists are evil. If we can’t understand both of those basic truths simultaneously, then we have truly lost our way."

_________________
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:04 am 
Offline
Aagragaah
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 12708
Location: Out on the banks
I don't have time for typing tonight, so have a link with a more accurate description of what went down in my backyard. Or why I only ever go to local news outlets and reporters on the ground for breaking developments, not national or opinion-centric sites.

Mostly photos: With a day of rallies, Berkeley stood united against bigotry

More text: In Berkeley, community comes out in force against hate, racism

Here's the aerial view, off "Official Alt-Left" twitter
Attachment:
DIQ9jcrUEAAByrg[1].jpg
DIQ9jcrUEAAByrg[1].jpg [ 81.02 KiB | Viewed 495 times ]


The smaller circle labeled antifa is mostly the Black Bloc, AKA the reason we can't have nice things. They call themselves anarchists, although I don't think that word means what they think it means (unlike the Nazis who mean exactly what it says on the package). They have been blamed for turning previously peaceful protests into a riot. In that light, they were remarkably restrained this Sunday, compared to their usual standards.

In total, there were thirteen arrests, per BPD, at least four for trying to smuggle prohibited items into the rally area, such as face covering. Two were from out of state, and I assume that at least the Oregonian was with the right-wing rally. Six people were injured, two severely enough to be taken to the hospital. Not a single broken window. There was a total of about four thousand people at the rally.

I believe one of those injured was Joey Gibson, who brought his freak show to some of the most liberal cities in the country in hopes of inciting a riot and feeding the "the left is the bad as the right" myth. He probably isn't eligible for a punch under the Nazi rule, and yes, they really shouldn't have assaulted him, but at least he has taken definitive steps to bring it upon himself.

Unlike Heather Heyer.

_________________
Image
‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 231 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Jude and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group