Trump's America

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

Frelga wrote:We know he is doing stuff. That's the problem.
Yes, I agree, there's a lot he's doing I'm not fond of. But the point I'm making is he's smart enough to do that stuff. People are starting to believe their own rhetoric about how dumb he is, and he wouldn't be smart enough to do that stuff if they were right.

"Look over here, I'm writing a tweet. Look over here, I'm going to do some actual stuff over there while you're looking over here."

People say he should stop using his twitter account because he can't use it intelligently. I say he should stop because too few can react intelligently. That, however, is why he won't stop.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
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yovargas
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Re: Trump's America

Post by yovargas »

Cerin wrote: What Trump said is absolutely true. It isn't 'attacking Congress on behalf of Russia' to point out the danger of the current frenzy of Russia-goading that's going on, not only by Congress but by the Democrats, the intelligence services, the war hawks and the media.
Huh. I find that odd to hear coming from you. You've long expressed deep concern about vote tampering and related issues, but we get evidence that Russia meddled in our elections and you think people should be less upset and worried about it?
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Frelga
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Frelga »

Meanwhile.
http://thehill.com/homenews/news/345870 ... me-in-july#

"FBI agents late last month conducted a raid at the home of Paul Manafort, President Trump's former campaign manager.

The agents had a search warrant to seize materials from Manafort's residence in Alexandria, Va., according to The Washington Post, citing people familiar with special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into Russian meddling in the 2016 presidential election."

Manafort, like just about everyone in Trump's circle, has had deep and profitable connection to Putin's corrupt and oppressive regime. He has worked for a pro-Russian political party in Ukraine, and his departure was followed by accusations of massive embezzlement.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

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Cerin
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Cerin »

yovargas wrote: Huh. I find that odd to hear coming from you. You've long expressed deep concern about vote tampering and related issues, but we get evidence that Russia meddled in our elections and you think people should be less upset and worried about it?
If my house were flooded, I wouldn't be upset and worried about someone spilling a glass of water.

Russia is a little drop in the ocean of election corruption that is engineered by our fellow citizens.
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Frelga
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Re: Trump's America

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The saga continues.

Bloomberg News "Manafort alerted authorities to the Trump Jr.-Russian lawyer meeting, sources say" https://t.co/3HuVyUDG6e https://t.co/HLGWnDMT4n
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

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Griffon64
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Griffon64 »

Polls are not necessarily accurate, but I find it a little disquieting that half of Republican voters poll as saying they would happily heave the country's democratic processes out the window:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... li=BBnb7Kz

I guess if you hook, line and sinker election fraud fake news so you can believe your candidate won the popular vote, you see yourself at war with your country's processes and this kind of thing becomes OK? Checks and balances don't mean much if people decide they don't want them anymore.

My head are in my hands because of how easily people believe in nonsense. ( Of course, believing in nonsense is not a Republican exclusive. There's a bunch of science deniers, especially, on the left. ) And of course, Donald J Trump didn't lose the popular election by that much. There are tons and tons and tons of people in this country who said "He will be a fine leader" and I don't think they've stopped believing in that at all.
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River
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Re: Trump's America

Post by River »

There's not even a legal mechanism for suspending elections in this country. WTF?

In other news, my parents live in Seattle and are putting together a kit in case of nuclear attack. They are keeping it in the part of the basement that houses their wine collection and my mom's sewing corner. They grew up doing bomb drills at school. They aren't happy about this. It might be a waste of money, actually. If Seattle gets nuked they'll probably be incinerated, along with all three of my siblings. It would be nice if we still had a functioning diplomatic corps that would make this whole thing stop before it even started, but all the experienced people were asked to resign and no one's gotten around to even nominating replacements, never mind confirming then. MAGA!!!!
When you can do nothing what can you do?
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Frelga
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Frelga »

We don't even have an Ambassador to South Korea, it turns out.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

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Cerin
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Cerin »

Griffon64 wrote:Polls are not necessarily accurate, but I find it a little disquieting that half of Republican voters poll as saying they would happily heave the country's democratic processes out the window:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... li=BBnb7Kz
I'd call that an example of extremely irresponsible journalism. I'd ask how people here would have felt about such a poll being conducted by a supposedly mainstream media source regarding Pres. Obama. You can be sure there were plenty of Obama haters on the right who seriously entertained ideas about him suspending elections, but did you see any reputable news sources polling people about their reaction to such a hypothetical event?

I'm afraid the reality of Trump as Pres. has truly unhinged some people, and there are now as many wackos inhabiting the left side of the political spectrum as there are the right. What purpose could possibly be served by polling people about their reaction to something NO ONE HAS SUGGESTED? All it will do is make people more paranoid.
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Griffon64
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Griffon64 »

Well ... I don't recall President Obama throwing around accusations of election fraud after he won the election, so ... you reap what you sow?
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River
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Re: Trump's America

Post by River »

A similarly-sized fraction of Republicans also believe Trump won the popular vote. I wonder how they overlap with the ones who'd be okay with a suspended election. I also wonder how many are birthers and how many believe Hillary was simultaneously dying of Parkinson's and while sinisterly having people killed. And how many were just trolling the pollsters.
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

A poll based on the fevered imaginations of whomever conducted the poll. Democrats have just as much reason to fear Trump suspending the election as Republicans had to fear Obama doing so. Good grief, there's enough to fear in the world without creating things from imagination.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
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yovargas
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Re: Trump's America

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Yeah, gotta agree on that one. That kinda polling isn't very helpful.
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I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
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Impenitent
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Impenitent »

*Nods*
Husband and I agreed this morning that it almost counts as fake news in the real sense.

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Griffon64
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Griffon64 »

Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:A poll based on the fevered imaginations of whomever conducted the poll. Democrats have just as much reason to fear Trump suspending the election as Republicans had to fear Obama doing so. Good grief, there's enough to fear in the world without creating things from imagination.
Thanks for the replies and insight, everyone. I enjoy discussing things with people who are not just copies of my own thought processes, because it leads to insights and perspectives I haven't considered before, and helps me to change my worldviews on all sorts of things. I am very distrustful of echo chambers.

I think this sort of thing points to a growing rift in the US. ( Yes, I know - what insight! ). Obama wasn't a popular president with conservatives and right-wingers. The whole birther thing bubbled up to delegitimize him as president, and conservative media and conspiracy theorists constantly stirred the pot about how he wouldn't give up power, etc etc. All made up out of whole cloth as well, of course, but there was a lot of believers, and I think one of the consequences of that particular fear mongering is Donald J Trump as president. One thing that one might argue was different was that Obama, despite what conservatives believed, respected the law and didn't call judges names, so it seemed unlikely that he would engage in the things the conservatives feared he would - whereas Donald Trump's twitter account suggests his view of matters may not be quite the same.

I also think you're right that it points to fear. Yes, there's a lot of fear in the world. And for a nation with its resources and power, America seems to be a fearful nation. I suppose 9/11 inflicted some of that on the collective psyche of the nation, but I can't say for sure because I did not live here at the time. I don't know what the on-the-ground mood of the nation was like at the time. I'm just guessing because to me the ratio of fear to power I see seems out of whack - too much fear.

I think about some other large nations in the world and how their histories differ from the US - for example European countries have the World Wars in their history, and generations probably transfer some of the fears and lessons and resilience learned after such national events. For myself I can only speak to South Africa's history, which is also filled with trauma and violence. I know in my own culture the trauma of the Boer Wars and England's scorched earth policies and concentration camps had a big impact on my culture. My grandmother spoke very bitterly of the English. As a whole, my culture was filled with hard, unsympathetic people who found enemies easily and readily closed ranks to protect their own. Not a whole lot of fear, though. Sure, you had the same sort of conspiracy theories and doom and gloom gossip and fear mongering, but people used it as an escape valve to blow of steam. Nobody elected officials based on it. If they did, the AWB wouldn't have imploded politically in South Africa.

Anyway, I digress into a corner of world politics that is profoundly uninteresting to people. Back to the topic at hand.

Fear, lies, rumors, and bad decisions. Where next?

( PS: I don't know if I would call the results of a real poll about a hypothetical situation "fake news". Mostly because I don't want to call real things I don't agree with or don't believe in "fake news". The poll was real, though the content of it was about a volatile hypothetical situation. Though I guess we've already got the horse out the barn on "fake news" and now we all fling it around at anything that upsets us. )
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yovargas
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Re: Trump's America

Post by yovargas »

I'm just guessing because to me the ratio of fear to power I see seems out of whack - too much fear.
It is quite strange, isn't it.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
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Frelga
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Frelga »

Griffy, your post deserves a more thoughtful reading and response than I can manage right now. I hope to have some board time later tonight.

Meanwhile, a Reuters reporter tweets, "Trump just told reporters he wouldn't rule out military options in VENEZUELA."
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

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River
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Re: Trump's America

Post by River »

I saw that.

He ran on isolationism so that's weird. On the other hand, they do have oil and he has said more than once we should have taken all of Iraq's oil when we had a chance so maybe he's spotted an opportunity for some looting? Or they're refusing to build one of his hotels? Or maybe this is just Trump running his mouth again.

Trump aside, Venezuela's basically imploding. I'm not sure outside intervention will be of any help at all, though.
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Inanna
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Inanna »

Trump running his mouth again. Because, why not?
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Impenitent
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Impenitent »

He's very impulsive, isn't he; his tweets are similar to the off the cuff comments one might hear around a table of close friends, after a long night and a lot of drinks, when common sense has gone to bed.

I do think that the poll is 'fake news' (though I take your point, Grif, that it's a term now commonly thrown around), in the sense that it was manufactured - the poll, not the result - for a specific effect. Just thinking of asking that question, never mind the publication of the results, is playing devil's advocate in a most cynical way.



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