Trump's America

[Voronwë the Faithful]

John Bolton (no fan of Trump), who was part of the gathering referred to in the Atlantic article, has said that though he was part of the discussion, he never heard Trump use those words, and that the Atlantic account of the reasons for the cancellation of the visit is false.

From the article Rose posted:

But Bolton, who published a book earlier this year that was heavily critical of his former boss, said the alleged remarks sounded accurate.

“I have not heard anybody say, ‘Oh, that doesn’t sound like the Donald Trump I know,’” Bolton said in the interview. Bolton said the remarks may have stemmed from Trump’s skepticism of U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

“He was prone to say from time to time: ‘What did they get out of it? What was the worth of the war in Iraq and the war in Afghanistan?’” Bolton said. “That is a kind of insensitivity that Trump does have, there’s no doubt about it.”

Bolton was on the 2018 trip to Paris with Trump but said he didn’t hear the president disparage the dead Marines himself.

“I didn’t hear him say those things,” he said, adding later he probably would have included the remarks in his book if he had. “Now, did he say those things to other people later in the day? It’s certainly possible.”

[Cerin]

It should not be necessary for me to explain.

Because I can read your mind?

Your post implies that other people who disagree with you are too stupid or too lazy to find the "correct" information. That is highly offensive.

That certainly would be highly offensive if it were what I had meant (and it's so nice to know this is your opinion of my thought process), but I don't believe my post implies this. I was trying to get at the point that while a fact may be available for all to know, it is not necessarily the case that everyone knows it.


Rose, the only idea your article supports is what we already know, that Bolton hates Trump and believes him capable of despicable things. None of the rest of the article supports the Atlantic claims. The quotes that the article suggests are similar to the Atlantic quotes are not at all similar.


Elengil, I wasn't talking about opinion at all, I was talking about fact. Nowhere did I imply that everyone would interpret the facts the same way I do. I was explaining why I would react a certain way to what yovargas proposed.


I wonder how many more anonymously sourced defamations will be forthcoming in the next couple of months? Going by the last four years, I'm guessing at least one every three days.

[elengil]

Elengil, I wasn't talking about opinion at all, I was talking about fact. Nowhere did I imply that everyone would interpret the facts the same way I do. I was explaining why I would react a certain way to what yovargas proposed..

But within that explanation you put forth your opinion as if it were a fact, precisely by saying "It is completely inconsistent with everything we know about Trump's attitude toward the military".

Anyone talking about Trump's attitude toward something is automatically stating an opinion, not fact, and not even an opinion that everyone agrees with.

It is your opinion of what Trump's attitude toward the military is, and by wording it the way you did you put forth your opinion as if it was a fact, and further, a fact that everyone agreed with, which inherently (intentional or not) implies that either there is no difference of opinion, or that any difference of opinion is based on lack of knowledge.

I even acknowledge that was unlikely to be your intent, it is a common pitfall in speaking that people like to present information as being somehow greater or broader than themselves, I'm sure I've done my share of it.

[Sunsilver]

Trump is certainly NOT popular with those who serve. I just saw this tweet from author Raymond Feist on FB, in response to a report that Trump is defunding Stars and Stripes:

Raymond E. Feist
And I just got a news feed he's starting to walk that back. Given the numbers that Syracuse University/Military polls came out with a couple of days ago, he has the lowest approval rating among active duty military of any president since they started polling. The speculation is he wanted to shut down Stars & Stripes under the fiction of "cuttings costs," it was because he wasn't getting "dear leader" praise every day and he was fearful of criticism over Russian bounties, screwing Kurd allies, gutting NATO, etc.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Cerin, I'm not sure what else I can say to you. If you don't understand why what you said was offensive, there is never going to be a successful communication.

[Impenitent]

Confirmation bias in clear operation.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[RoseMorninStar]

I find the derision of anonymous sources when utilized by accredited journalists (in this case multiple credible journalists and the word of people who have worked closely with the president) rather incredulous when the greatest user of the 'anonymous source' is Trump himself. He constantly uses  'ManyPeople R. Saying', yet when asked who says these things he can never come up with a name and just says 'people'. Then there is 'Q'.. as in Q-Anon as in ANONYMOUS. Some willingly consume that ridiculous conspiracy garbage as if it is gospel and they have no idea who is spewing that propaganda. The lies and gaslighting have done a great deal of damage to our nation. It's the work of skilled liars and con-men.

[Frelga]

I remember when he said that the parents of American soldiers killed in Korea ran up to him to thank him for bringing home their bones.

And more recently

Screenshot_20200904-183234.jpg (101.9 KiB) Viewed 2974 times

[River]

I really hope he's just telling a lie because to lie you need to know the truth. An alternative explanation for that particular is he just doesn't remember if he brought his wife with him on that trip...and that would raise some alarming questions about both his CNS and whether he's has the cognitive capacity to confirm or deny anything else that happened on that day.

[Túrin Turambar]

To be frank, while I can easily imagine the President saying this based on his history of saying outrageous things, I'm wary of accepting it based on anonymous sources. I think Cohen and Bolton are both probably reliable, but neither can confirm Trump actually called the fallen soldiers "losers" and "suckers". If one or more witnesses were willing to identify themselves I'd be more confident. But Trump's history of bad behaviour doesn't make him guilty of everything he's accused of.

[River]

There's a wild-ass guess (I won't even dignify with calling it a hypothesis) brewing that one of those sources is Kelly himself. It's mostly based on Trump's most recent round of Twitter tantrums, in which Kelly was repeatedly named. Dubious, to the say the least, but darkly amusing if true.

It's close enough to the election that some of these people should probably just come forward.

[RoseMorninStar]

To be frank, while I can easily imagine the President saying this based on his history of saying outrageous things, I'm wary of accepting it based on anonymous sources. I think Cohen and Bolton are both probably reliable, but neither can confirm Trump actually called the fallen soldiers "losers" and "suckers". If one or more witnesses were willing to identify themselves I'd be more confident. But Trump's history of bad behaviour doesn't make him guilty of everything he's accused of.

AP News, which has long regarded as one of the best news resources confirmed the Atlantic story through their military reporter, former US Marine James LaPorta who contacted 4 sources within the military.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I am not wary of accepting the truth of the statement of anonymous sources used by a credible journalist, any more than I was wary of accepting "deep throat".

And if the president literally made up an alibi, that makes the story that much more credible.

x-posted with River AND Rose.

[Túrin Turambar]

Fair enough. Multiple corroborating reports makes it more credible.

[Sunsilver]

Here's a source that's hard to dispute:

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I doubt that many supporters of the president would consider Mary Trump a credible source.

(To be clear, I do.)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

And now Jennifer Griffin of Fox News (yes, Fox News) is confirming key parts of the story.

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/statu ... 1495973889

Two former sr Trump admin officials confirm @JeffreyGoldberg reporting that President Trump disparaged veterans and did not want to drive to honor American war dead at Aisne-Marne Cemetery outside Paris.

[RoseMorninStar]

Frankly, given how Trump has openly disparaged the Hahn family and John McCain and others for their service (and openly encouraged such derision in his rallies), I'm surprised anyone is surprised about this news. He has little to no respect for anyone that is of no immediate personal use to him.

**edited to add. This topic brings to mind some things that Trump has said or implied about those who pay taxes; that they are suckers, and that "smart" people (like him) don't pay taxes. He has said that paying taxes is money "squandered". I guess he must believe that sort of thing (which supports our military, infrastructure, Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, etc..) is for the 'little people'.. you know, us commoners.

[Frelga]

I doubt that many supporters of the president would consider Mary Trump a credible source.

True, but they don't even consider Trump himself a credible source despite the things he said on video and Twitter.

In the middle of the furor over Trump and soldiers is John Kelly, who so far has remained silent. Kelly has told associates that a retired 4-star general should not come out against a sitting president in the heat of a campaign.

That is not the principled stand one associates with military honor, but it is also very loudly not a "no, he never said that to me."

https://twitter.com/peterbakernyt/statu ... 27969?s=19

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/04/us/p ... trump.html

[elengil]

I doubt that many supporters of the president would consider Mary Trump a credible source.

True, but they don't even consider Trump himself a credible source despite the things he said on video and Twitter.

I think once again we ought to be a bit more cautious about ascribing beliefs to others. (I know I'm guilty of it myself...)