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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:33 am 
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I have to say that I personally dislike the "chickens coming home to roost" analogy, because it implies that there is some connection between the causes of terrorist violence and its victims. There are obviously widespread issues with racial inequality in the U.S. that often manifest themselves in law enforcement (as is the case with pretty much every western country with an historically-disadvantaged racial group, including mine). I can say pretty confidently that none of the officers shot down in Dallas or Baton Rouge had anything to do with it. Likewise, the victims of the Nice attack had nothing to do with the political situation in the Middle East, the people shot in that church in SC had done nothing to motivate Dylann Roof's issues, and the Orlando clubbers hardly had any connection with the issues that Islam has with homosexuality. There has always been hate, and there has always been indiscriminate violence driven by hate. Today we live in times when it both easier to carry out these sorts of mass killings and more profitable from an attention-drawing perspective.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:36 pm 
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[OT] I've often sowed things that I do not get to reap later. Planting is easy. Tending the plants often enough so that you actually get something to harvest is a whole different ball game. :P And Japanese beetles have ruined my apple crop this year. Again. :doh: Tiny scumbags. :rage: [/OT]


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:39 pm 
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If you zoom out until you find the overlap between the victims and the perpetrators the analogy will make sense. After all, the terrorists are not looking for specific perpetrators. They are looking to lash out against a group that includes their enemies.

That's part of the point here: people want think they personally will be safe, like to think they personally can continue living comfortable lives, because they "had nothing to do with it". Or because "it isn't my mess to fix."

But how did that work out for that list of victims? How much did it help them to abstract away issues until they could wash their hands or wring them? That violence was not indiscriminate.

Every case you list, the victims were exactly the group the terrorists targeted. Gay men targeted by homophobic Islamists. Police officers targeted by men who saw police officers as the enemy. Western nationals targeted by a Middle Eastern terrorist. Black people killed by a white man who hoped to incite a racial war.

There will always be hate? Yes, some people are just born angry. But you know, most of them lead normal lives even with their anger issues. They don't go on killing sprees. You need to really have something broken in your mind to kill people for disagreeing with you. Sometimes that break is caused by what happened in your life up to that point. Sometimes, as in the case of many mass or serial killers, it is a deeper issue.

It's been easy to carry out mass killings since the automobile and the Gatling gun was invented. Sure America foolishly made it easy to carry out mass killings by making assault weapons readily available to its public. But very few people see a weapon made for mass murder and grabs it and goes to kill people indiscriminately, just for fun.

Some seem to: Aurora. Columbine. There are certain stereotypes that can be assigned to those killers, too - but I might grant that those could be indiscriminate violence driven by hate.

These recent terrorist attacks? No. Terrorists don't kill indiscriminately. They kill for a purpose.

They kill because they feel rage at what they feel to be entrenched racial inequality, they kill because they rage at what they feel to be deeds against Islam, they kill out of rage because they hate a certain race --- and they kill because they have access to the weapons they need to kill.

We will not solve the access to weapons bit. Ever. If you try to make weapons illegal the black market will still provide them. You cannot unmake the knowledge the human race has. We know how to make guns. We cannot undo that knowledge. We will have better luck at solving the problem from the other end, but it will take time and effort and most people are unwilling to spend that. It took time and effort before women could vote. It took time and effort to strike down racial discrimination laws. It will take time and effort before the inequalities that resulted from just those two things are balanced. Women still don't consistently receive equal pay for equal work. Black people are still poorer than white people. Every person alive on earth right now has the responsibility to confront those problems, and perhaps then the unborn will get to see an equal world.

As for the issue with Islam: I don't even know how to address it. I don't have enough experience with it, or knowledge of it. My only encounter with some of it comes from years back when I worked for a consultancy firm. One of our clients was a Muslim and we went over to his office every so often. I was the only female programmer on the team. The men sometimes went by themselves, I always went with a guy, because the guys didn't want me to go by myself. Our client was thin and kind of wild-eyed. Soft spoken and intense. He had a neat pattern of old scars on his cheeks and forehead - thin, precise cuts with two rows of dots where the stitches were next to each one. He had recently been to Mecca. He talked about Islam with a zealous fire in his eyes. He didn't shake hands. He hardly spoke to me. When he did look at me it was with quick glances. His name was Imtiaz. It was in 2000 or early 2001 when we did work for his firm. I realized that some cultures are very different from mine, and I that don't begin to understand them.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:19 am 
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The Washitaw Nation claims Native sovereignty, but is not Native American, just to be clear.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:41 pm 
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New Video Shows Moments Before and After Man Was Shot by North Miami Police Officer

Charles Kinsey, a caregiver at a nearby group home for mentally disabled adults, was trying to calm an autistic patient when police shot him in the leg


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"My client asked why did you shoot me? The officer told my client, 'I don't know,' that was his words verbatim," attorney Hilton Napoleon said. "Another officer asked, 'Why did you shoot this guy?' and the shooting officer said he didn't know why he shot him."

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:48 pm 
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There's something seriously wrong with police training procedures.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:46 am 
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A news story now indicates the officer meant to shoot the autistic kid and missed. Which is about the only thing I can think of that could make this worse. :nono:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:17 am 
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Either it's the training procedures or the hiring procedures...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:35 am 
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Or, honestly, both.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:38 pm 
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Let's not forget--in a lot of places, the chief duty of the police is generating revenue. They have to not only pay for themselves but underfunded municipal governments with constituents who either can't afford to pay more taxes (see: north St. Louis County, including Ferguson) or just don't want to, depending on the local demographics. One can't really expect a system designed with Dickensian precision to keep poor residents and neighbors on a treadmill of citations, court appearances and fines forever to go out of its way to either hire or train its revenue collectors in things like police work.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:57 pm 
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R was just telling me about a study which found that this role change led to this overall mess. I will ask him for the link

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:26 pm 
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Is there a tendency for officers to want to avoid poor black neighborhoods, with the effect that the worst and most junior officers are the ones who end up on that beat? Or even that the troublemakers are assigned to it as punishment?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:54 pm 
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Now Munich. :(

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:55 am 
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Dave_LF wrote:
Is there a tendency for officers to want to avoid poor black neighborhoods, with the effect that the worst and most junior officers are the ones who end up on that beat? Or even that the troublemakers are assigned to it as punishment?


I think this possible. I also think, per Ax's point, that having police forces administered at such a local level means that there are thousands of police forces in the U.S. with the potential for huge inconsistencies in funding, recruitment, training and procedures. When I think of the problems faced by municipal governments which are strapped for cash in the delivery of most services, I don't feel particularly confident that they'd find it any easier to deliver good policing.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:28 am 
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The other day there was a very interesting short reportage on German television about being a policeman in the US. It asked the question what it means to be in a place where virtually everybody could be armed and every person is a potential threat and how it changes the mind set towards use of arms in the police in general.

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Last edited by Nin on Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:34 pm 
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Yes, you go around in a constant state of high alert. A common phrase is, "There's no such thing as a routine call." And that's true. A traffic stop, stopping to help a stranded motorist, responding to a domestic violence call, questioning loitering teens—any one of those could turn deadly for the officer (and, ergo, for the citizens, too).

Dave, it really depends on the city and the size of the city. In Kettering, nobody gets to pick one area over the other. However, seniority dictates which shift you get to work. I am sure that in a large city seniority plays into which district you work.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:30 pm 
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http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -violence/

This article from Scientific American was good and holds some promise for reducing violence against black people. It's at least a beginning anyway, and I think the research being done is important.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:00 am 
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http://www.vox.com/2015/7/13/8908397/11 ... in-history

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:17 am 
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[holby]Maybe we need more police officers like this!
Bikini-clad off-duty Swedish police officer arrests pickpocket[/holby]

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:40 am 
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Methinks that would only lead to more lawbreaking.


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