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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:09 pm 
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This little parody segment is simething I look forward to each Sunday morning.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:56 pm 
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The Catalonia parliament has approved secession, the Spanish government has indicated it does not recognize this action.

If Catalonia goes ahead with this, will it mean war?

Secession doesn't happen in "modern" "advanced" nations. Sure it is fine in places like South Sudan and Kosovo, but not in Ukraine, as decreed by the US. Here's a case that the US actually hasn't commented on, and I sure hope that the people of Spain and Catalonia aren't waiting for US input. So far it seems they aren't, but I'm not in Spain to tell and there isn't a lot of English language coverage.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Here's one of the rare English language articles, in the BBC because they cover more news than American media.

Spain Catalonia: Ballot papers for banned referendum to be seized

The Spanish government has declared secession illegal, the Catalonian government vowed to go ahead with it anyway, so the Spanish government has ordered election material to be seized.

If Catalonia does vote to leave, how far will Spain go to prevent it?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:15 pm 
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not something I would recommend
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Not much to say but I find this fascinating.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:19 am 
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And I had no clue about it...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:21 am 
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Another facet of the Catalonia saga is a question of standards. When the UK voted to leave the EU, Scotland in turn threatened to leave the UK in order to stay in the EU. Now it may have been just bluster, but that is what they said, and it seemed like the EU was ready to roll out the welcome mat.

Catalonia has expressed a desire to leave Spain but stay in the EU, and the EU's response is quite different. The EU has replied that since admission to the EU involves approval of existing member states, Spain would block Catalonian membership and that would leave Catalonia out of the EU.

The subject of secession is an interesting one, especially with regards to when it gets approval and when it gets disapproval. Kosovo leaving Serbia is approved, South Sudan leaving Sudan is approved, Donetsk leaving Ukraine is not approved, Catalonia leaving Spain is not approved. The UK leaving the EU is condemned but regarded as something that can be done in spite of disagreement, and Scotland wanting to stay in the EU to the point of leaving the UK was treated approvingly even if Scottish independence might not get approved under other circumstances.

When is secession acceptable and when is it unacceptable, that is an interesting question.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:19 am 
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Aagragaah
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Donetsk is not secession, it's an invasion.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:36 pm 
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Frelga wrote:
Donetsk is not secession, it's an invasion.


Well, that's under dispute. Donetsk (and another republic) declared independence in a move Ukraine said was illegal. The unrecognized Republic then started building ties to Russia. Ukraine sent in troops to reclaim the unrecognized independent republic, so Donetsk asked Russia for help. Russia claims it is aiding Donetsk, Ukraine claims it is a Russian invasion.

This the inconsistent standard about when a breakaway secession is recognized or not.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:40 pm 
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Did you just mansplain Ukraine to me? You realize I grew up there, have family who lived in Donetsk, and get my information from both Russian and Ukrainian news, as well as friends who are there right now.

It's an invasion.

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:17 pm 
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not something I would recommend
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As someone who knows next to nothing about the situation, can you clarify which part of CG's description was inaccurate?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:19 pm 
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All of it. The entire thing was orchestrated by Russia and backed by Russian military.

I don't have a keyboard to type the background now, but I believe there's a relevant thread in this forum.

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:36 pm 
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I didn't realize how horribly evil Putin is until the scandal broke about Russia's meddling in the U.S. election. Then I started to see articles like this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3900&p=330552&hilit=Putin#p330552

Unfortunately, I forgot to link my post to the original article. :(

I've now managed to fix that omission:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ee/534864/

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:27 pm 
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Frelga wrote:
All of it. The entire thing was orchestrated by Russia and backed by Russian military.

I don't have a keyboard to type the background now, but I believe there's a relevant thread in this forum.


Secession efforts are seldom successful without outside backing, and governments almost never recognize them. By definition, from the Ukranian point of view, the vote was illegal, the secession never happened, and Russian participation was invasion. By definition. And other actors in this drama have other definitions. From the Donetsk point of view the vote was legal, secession happened, Ukraine invaded, and Russia came to the rescue.

That I report on both perspectives is why every point in my post is wrong.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:26 pm 
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When a tense discussion is going on, sarcasm is objectionable, too, Cenedril.

Frelga, I believe I understand why you're so angry, but it's unlikely to make a difference in this case.

I can't be here longer than this. I would just ask that you both adopt a calmer tone. I see no reason why we can't have an exchange that generates more light than heat. But if I'm wrong about that, I'll step in.

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:24 pm 
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Aagragaah
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I am not angry at all, Prim. I am a bit bemused but not surprised.

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:00 pm 
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Okay. Thanks for clarifying, Frelga.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:58 pm 
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Spanish officials crank up pressure on Catalan breakaway bid

Quote:
Spain's top prosecutor is investigating more than 700 Catalan mayors for cooperating with a planned referendum on the region's independence after the nation's constitutional court ordered the vote put on hold, the prosecutor's office said Wednesday. Catalonia's regional police force is under orders to arrest the mayors if they refuse to appear for questioning, State Prosecutor Jose Manuel Maza's office said. The announcement significantly raised the stakes in an increasingly tense standoff between Catalan independence supporters and national authorities over the referendum planned for Oct. 1.


If they help have the election (without any regard for the results, just the election) they get arrested. Again, there seems to be some standard I can't grasp about when secession is approved of and when it isn't.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:00 am 
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Frelga wrote:
Did you just mansplain Ukraine to me?


No, I'm not mansplaining, I'm personsplaining. That's what happens when one person is talking to another person. The only reason that would be objectionable is if you aren't a person.

The term "mansplaining" is sexist, misandrist, demeaning, and offensive.

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"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:55 am 
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It also pretty clearly describes something women experience very frequently. I would argue that it is not misandrist; it's descriptive.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:26 am 
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Aagragaah
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CG, mansplaining occurs when a man (it's pretty much always a man) explains in an authoritative tone things he knows a great deal less about than, usually, a woman he explains them to. The reason you are wrong about Ukraine is that you seem to look at secession movements in a positive light because they destabilize The State, which you appear to consider a good thing. That ideology is the only perspective that allows viewing the Ukrainian situation as anything other than an invasion. Well, that and Russian propaganda.

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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