Brexit Carried - Endgame

[Pearly Di]

Hi, all! *

Anthy!!!!!

Again, in my toe-in-the-cauldron kind of outsider-who-knows nothing way, I wondered this exact same thing. From what I have read, the EU may seem to many people as an important symbol of European unity, rather than a favorable political construct. The loss of perceived unity may be something people are mourning, aside from the change in trade alliances. Again, no dog in the hunt there, but I wondered.

That's definitely what I'm mourning. (Also, leaving the European Union is not the same thing as being anti-Europe. Although for some people that is undoubtedly the case. ) I see myself as English, British and European - I see myself as all those three things.

My father did a lot of work for the Common Market back in the 1970s and 80s. I'm glad he didn't live to see this. That was his life's work. My mother was a child during WW2 and remembers the war very well, remembers the bombs dropping in the London suburb she lived in. I asked her what SHE thought about the vote. She said, wistfully: "Well. It seems a great shame to me, to be turning our backs on Europe like this. All the work that was done to bring us together."

I do not automatically regard everyone wanting to leave the EU as some sort of Little Englander. That would be quite wrong. But arguments for leaving the EU have to be made calmly and rationally and NOT in this ghastly "up yours" attitude to our European cousins. And there were no solid, substantive arguments from the Brexit side, just shallow, empty populism ('take back control' and 'take our country back', rah rah rah) with a very nasty streak of xenophobia which has emerged. Yuck.

And there is no Plan. Leaving the EU would be a complex business. Clearly this has not occurred to many Leave voters. Give me strength.

I am furious with the people who have so thoughtlessly plunged my country into such an outrageous mess. Furious with them for not taking enough heed of the deep divisions that have emerged.

Let me say this though: I live in Greater London and work in central London, and the atmosphere everywhere is calm and normal. The ordinary people are getting on with their lives, while our political elite implode and make fools of themselves.

[yovargas]

They believe the masses simply aren't qualified to make any decisions, that it should be left up to elected enlightened leadership.

I am increasingly of the mind that, at least when it comes to economic issues, this isn't at all an unreasonable position. Economics is a massively complicated issue with a million different, constantly moving pieces. Almost no one (perhaps exactly no one), myself included, truly understand it. Asking "the masses" to vote on economic decisions may in some ways may be about as reasonable idea as asking them to vote on how to design a space ship.

[Alatar]

They believe the masses simply aren't qualified to make any decisions, that it should be left up to elected enlightened leadership.

I am increasingly of the mind that, at least when it comes to economic issues, this isn't at all an unreasonable position. Economics is a massively complicated issue with a million different, constantly moving pieces. Almost no one (perhaps exactly no one), myself included, truly understand it. Asking "the masses" to vote on economic decisions may in some ways may be about as reasonable idea as asking them to vote on how to design a space ship.

This. And even worse are those who think they know how to design a space ship cause they watched a documentary on it and played Kerbal Space Programme.

[axordil]

So here's a question I'm seeing raised: can a PM just start the exit clock rolling by him or herself, or as an exit from a treaty, does it require an Act of Parliament?

[River]

This. And even worse are those who think they know how to design a space ship cause they watched a documentary on it and played Kerbal Space Programme.

Rocket McRocketyface!

Sorry. Couldn't resist. Carry on.

[yovargas]

Rocket McRocketyface!

And then there are those times when only The People truly know what's best.

[Túrin Turambar]

So here's a question I'm seeing raised: can a PM just start the exit clock rolling by him or herself, or as an exit from a treaty, does it require an Act of Parliament?

Good question. My understanding is that (like much of foreign policy) it would be an action of the executive government which would not require an Act of Parliament, but I could be wrong.

In other news, Jeremy Corbyn has just lost a vote of no-confidence among Labour MPs 172-40. In most parliamentary parties this would be the end for him, but as the British Labour Party uses a party member election system somewhat similar to thew American primaries, he doesn't actually need to quit. He is refusing to unless he loses a party-wide leadership election like the one that he won when he took the leadership. So the Labour Party may descend into chaos.

[anthriel]

Hi, all! *

Anthy!!!!!

Hey, darlin'!

Again, in my toe-in-the-cauldron kind of outsider-who-knows nothing way, I wondered this exact same thing. From what I have read, the EU may seem to many people as an important symbol of European unity, rather than a favorable political construct. The loss of perceived unity may be something people are mourning, aside from the change in trade alliances. Again, no dog in the hunt there, but I wondered.

That's definitely what I'm mourning.

Ah, thank you for weighing in on that. I tried to put my oversized American feet in your shoes, and that's what I would be mourning, as well.

[Túrin Turambar]

The plot, already as thick as molasses on a cold day, has thickened further. Boris Johnson will not run for the leadership, as he announced in a speech which drew audible gapss from the assembled journalists. The reason is that Michael Gove is running himself, as Johnson would have depended on his support. This means that Theresa May, steadily gathering support, now seems to certain to become leader. The Conservative Party would have a moderate pro-remain leader in the Cameron mould following the party's decisive rejection of that style of leadership in the Brexit vote.

[Pearly Di]

Anthy,

This week in British politics continues to be a mixture of Game of Thrones meets Monty Python.

[Frelga]

I still can't believe that a shadow cabinet is apparently a real thing and not something out of a steampunk fantasy story.

ETA: my apologies, this will only make sense to Pratchett readers.

Lord Vetinari takes control of the UK

Until yesterday Vetinari was the tyrant of Ankh-Morpork the largest and most powerful city on Discworld. A place known to us through the life-enhancingly brilliant reporting of much-missed travel writer Sir Terry Pratchett. Today Lord Vetinari says he’s the man to lead the UK through the Brexit crisis.

“A firm hand is all it takes,” he said calmly. “A firm hand and a willingness to negotiate. I look forward to meeting Angela Merkel and Jean-Claude Juncker immensely. I do hope that they like to play Thud.”

“Domestically things appear to be very untidy here however I shall soon have the donkey down from the minaret, or, to put it another way, the Farage back in the saloon bar.”

[Cerin]

Jim Hightower is a folksy American populist commentator. I thought our European members might like to see how Brexit is being interpreted on the progressive side of the US political spectrum.


jim hightower

[anthriel]

That's an interesting post, Cerin, perhaps to me in a way you did not intend. Do you feel that Brexit, or perhaps the reason Brexit passed, is perceived differently across the pond? Jim Hightower voices roughly what I thought was going on... a working class revolt against the fat cats, with an added bit of xenophobia (which I notice he does not address).

Of course, my experience with this is bound by what I can try to glean from less-partisan news outlets (few and far between, I'm sorry to say) and you fine folks here. The only British national I know who was FOR Brexit is an ex-pat from Manchester. She worked with us at the lab until one day she just didn't show up (after 9 years). We were all frantically worried about her, but after three days of ignoring our calls (and the calls of our leadership), she finally responded after our supervisor left a message saying she was going to ask the police to drop by her home and do a well-check. Turns out she had essentially had enough of the hospital bureaucracy, and felt it bizarre that her worth was so thoroughly tied to what she could produce rather than who she is. Her FB posts since then have been all about Bernie Sanders and the sinfulness of capitalism. She is from a working class family, and she is the only Brit I know that I can see and touch; of course I am aware that doesn't mean she speaks for the working class in England. However, here is a recent post of hers from FB (it was a public comment, so I feel comfortable sharing it here with the anonymity of not sharing her name):

Good luck today everybody with the EU vote. I'm deffo there with you in spirit on such an historical day.
Even though I don't particularly trust any of the leaders in the BREXIT campaign, they're all "good old boys" after all and have their own agenda, I do believe in sovereignty, independence and taking chances. Bureaucracy of any kind is a burden to us all, takes away our right to make decisions, and in my view a complete waste of time. I vote LEAVE!

[Cerin]

Do you feel that Brexit, or perhaps the reason Brexit passed, is perceived differently across the pond? Jim Hightower voices roughly what I thought was going on... a working class revolt against the fat cats, with an added bit of xenophobia (which I notice he does not address).

I did feel, when I read the Hightower piece, that it was quite a different perspective from the reactions and ideas that Nin, Alatar and Di shared here (and that's the only real contact I have with how Brexit is perceived across the pond). They seemed to see the EU as representing unity and progress, not a corrupt, predatory and elitist world order.

[anthriel]

Do you feel that Brexit, or perhaps the reason Brexit passed, is perceived differently across the pond? Jim Hightower voices roughly what I thought was going on... a working class revolt against the fat cats, with an added bit of xenophobia (which I notice he does not address).

I did feel, when I read the Hightower piece, that it was quite a different perspective from the reactions and ideas that Nin, Alatar and Di shared here (and that's the only real contact I have with how Brexit is perceived across the pond). They seemed to see the EU as representing unity and progress, not a corrupt, predatory and elitist world order.

I agree that the reaction from most of my European friends has been horror and dismay at the results of this vote. However, since Brexit carried the day, many people voting that day felt differently. There must be a difference of perspective in England (perhaps as outlined by Jim Hightower and my friend from Manchester? It will be interesting to see if our USA observers got it right), one which we haven't seen represented amongst our Europeans friends on this board.

[Pearly Di]

I freely admit that I am in something of a Remain bubble. Many of my friends, both RL and 'imaginary', including quite a few church friends, voted Remain.

Yes, the Brexit vote was a big populist rebellion against the political elite. Yes, it has exposed a huge faultline in Britain. The Leave voters, too, have been betrayed, in my opinion, given that every single architect of the Brexit campaign has now fled the scene. Unbelievable. Reality long overtook satire.

Meanwhile, we do have a new female Prime Minister. Teresa May. (Conservative, of course, the new Tory leader. We don't elect leaders here, we elect parties, and there was obviously a vacancy going.) She is Pro-Remain, which will upset the Leave voters, but quite frankly our current political atmosphere is so dysfunctional and sub-Tudor that I'll take anyone who is remotely sane, and Teresa May, while I don't like everything she stands for, is the most sane and least flaky Tory contender.

Don't have much emotional/mental energy right now to say much more.

[Nin]

I do believe in solidarity rather than sovereignty, in interdependance rather than independence and a functioning bureaucracy is a protection against curroption, maybe the best we have. But none of this is popular or easy. Yes, many people may have believed that a Brexit vote is against traditional elites and for the working class - only it is not. The regions which voted for the Brexit are in fact those which receive a lot of money from the EU.

This analyses far better the behavior of voters:
http://www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/th ... of-brexit/

ETA: in fact European Right Wing and a narrow fringe of extreme left has the same reaction as in this American article. It not new to me or not even a different or original perspective. To me, it's the usual easy populism, as usually carefully avoiding references to the xenophobic side of the vote and presenting themselves as champions of the working class without analyzing any further the loss of power and wealth of the working class through the change of the economic structure.

[Griffon64]

Some really interesting points in the link you posted, Nin. Thank you for posting it! I will have to read it more thoroughly, to be honest I had time only to quickly read, but several things jumped out at me.

[eborr]

I am really quite embarrassed about the whole thing, and the aftermath is bonkers. The parliamentary labour party in a face off against it's membership, trying every trick in the book to make sure that they can prevent/defeat a popular vote. We have appointed a couple of idiots at the Foreign Secretary and Liam Fox to international trade. If you don't know BoJo you soon will, he makes Trump seem like a humble thoughtful person, the other one Fox was fired from his previous role for insisting that his "protege" sat in on contractual meetings between MOD and suppliers, even though he young man had no "official" status - I think Catamite went out in the day of Richard 1 (Lionheart).

The idiot Fox in his first action proudly announced he was saving £400k by cancelling the Nimrol AWACS programme, and then went out and bought Boeings at several billion each despite the fact that Nimrod would have only cost £120kl to complete.

It would be really funny if these people weren't so important. There is a story going round that between them they will make such a botch of the negotiations that May will be able to sack them both and not have to enact article 51

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around "Boris Johnson, chief diplomat".