I think it's no accident that the institutions of the EU are located in Brussels and Strasbourg, cities sitting on major cultural fault lines which have changed ownership several times in the past few centuries, as opposed to Paris or Berlin. The idea of a united Europe will always be stronger there.
I also don't think it's odd that the British are less keen on the idea of losing their national sovereignty than the Belgians or Alsatians, given that Britain has always been something of an outsider in Europe. Its maritime and commercial Empire was, until the second half of the twentieth century, much more of a source of wealth and power than the European continent, which at times under the control of hostile powers. Additionally, before the EU Britain was most-involved in the European continent in the First World War, which resulted in the largest-scale loss of life in British history outside the Black Death. It's unsurprising that Britain would be just as inclined to look across the Atlantic for connections as it would be to look across the Channel.
Brexit Carried - Endgame
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Túrin Turambar
- Posts: 6153
- Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:37 am
- Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Re: Brexit
The biggest problem with the Brexit debate is that it's happening at all. It was a political move by Cameron to keep control of the looney fringe of the conservative party and the small minded little Englander Xenophobic tendencies that they share with UKIP. Behind this simplistic populist appeal there are a rather more sinister set of machinations going on whereby certain wealthy individuals and groups resent the normalizing influence of the EU on some of their preferred policies - eg removal of civil rights, single rate tax, and so on.
Whilst to my mind Cameron and Osborne are on the right of British politics(their talk of one nation, really means one nation working together to keep us in the state to which we are accustomed), they at least have the sense to realise, that under the influence of Merkle the EU is now a bastion of Neo-lib economics, and is entirely supportive of their preferences of robbing the poor to give to the rich. In addition Brexit will have a catastrophic effect on employment and trade as well as the Union. If Brexit occurs Scotland will immediately press for independence, the Scots Nats have a far greater mandate than any other political party in the UK and a key promise of theirs is to remain in Europe, you could see similar things happening in Wales and Northern Ireland, which historically have been the beneficiaries of Euro largesse. Pretty much all UK manufacturing is owned by foreign no EU entities, and the key reason that they are interested in Britain is that it is part of the single market, if that's no longer the case, then apart from the language and the weak labour laws there is no reason to stay, and strong incentives to move their workshops to countries with a lower cost base such as Poland.
And this to me is the absolute deal breaker as far as Brexit is concerned - I just take a look at the people who are leading the Brexit campaign. If you wanted to dream up the opposite of a dream team to run the country you only need look at the Brexit leadership, BoJo the for all his buffoonery is a very dangerous man.
Whilst to my mind Cameron and Osborne are on the right of British politics(their talk of one nation, really means one nation working together to keep us in the state to which we are accustomed), they at least have the sense to realise, that under the influence of Merkle the EU is now a bastion of Neo-lib economics, and is entirely supportive of their preferences of robbing the poor to give to the rich. In addition Brexit will have a catastrophic effect on employment and trade as well as the Union. If Brexit occurs Scotland will immediately press for independence, the Scots Nats have a far greater mandate than any other political party in the UK and a key promise of theirs is to remain in Europe, you could see similar things happening in Wales and Northern Ireland, which historically have been the beneficiaries of Euro largesse. Pretty much all UK manufacturing is owned by foreign no EU entities, and the key reason that they are interested in Britain is that it is part of the single market, if that's no longer the case, then apart from the language and the weak labour laws there is no reason to stay, and strong incentives to move their workshops to countries with a lower cost base such as Poland.
And this to me is the absolute deal breaker as far as Brexit is concerned - I just take a look at the people who are leading the Brexit campaign. If you wanted to dream up the opposite of a dream team to run the country you only need look at the Brexit leadership, BoJo the for all his buffoonery is a very dangerous man.
Since 1410 most Welsh people most of the time have abandoned any idea of independence as unthinkable. But since 1410 most Welsh people, at some time or another, if only in some secret corner of the mind, have been "out with Owain and his barefoot scrubs." For the Welsh mind is still haunted by it's lightning-flash vision of a people that was free.
Gwyn A. Williams,
Gwyn A. Williams,
Re: Brexit
Thank you all for the interesting discussion, with special thanks to Nin and Túrin for the information. 
Little Englander wasn't a term I'd heard before until I started watching An Idiot Abroad. They refer to the friend they send traveling as a Little Englander. I figured out what it meant from its context but didn't realize it was a genuine term. Interesting.
I'm sure it's a big question to answer, but what are the main benefits of countries joining the EU? Is there a financial advantage? (This seems to be the main motivation for many things.)
There may be the less tangible advantages of reducing nationalism (assuming a person thinks that's a good thing). ??
ETA: Ber just posted this on FB. Is this an accurate summary?
Here's a bit of pre-EU history to help explain my position.
I grew up in a time of post-war austerity. My country, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, was broke and virtually in ruins. Germans were still "the enemy" in children's games. Bomb sites and abandoned air-raid shelters were our playgrounds. Nine years after the war ended butter, meat and sugar were still rationed. One couldn't buy sweets without coupons issued by the government.
Portugal and Spain were fascist dictatorships. In Spain unauthorised gatherings of more than 3 people were illegal. A military junta later seized power in Greece. Half of Europe was sealed off behind the Iron Curtain. I remember lying in bed at night, in my parents home, and hearing the roar of American warplanes flying overhead on their Cold War missions. We were told that, if the Russians unleashed their missiles, we would get 4 minutes' warning of Armageddon.
In Britain our currency was weak. We had exchange controls. Travellers were allowed to take only £25 sterling out of the country plus a limited amount in foreign currency. On return, any left over had to be sold back to an authorised trader. The details were entered in one's passport. (See photo.)
The UK still had the death penalty despite some obvious and irreversible miscarriages of justice. In France they still executed condemned prisoners by cutting their heads off. In Spain they used strangulation.
The press and the BBC, (there was only the BBC), were not free from government interference and books, films and plays were censored. Women were paid less than men for equivalent work and landlords could turn away black and Irish people with impunity. For private acts of "gross indecency" gay men were sent to prison.
During the 1950s, six similarly devastated European countries were determined that the catastrophe of war between them should never be repeated. They decided to work towards creating a single European economy. The result was never "just a trading agreement" as some detractors now suggest. The Treaty of Rome, signed in 1957, provided for free movement of goods, services, people and capital, with the stated aim of "closer relations between the States".
The UK was invited to participate from the outset, but Prime Minister Attlee rather scornfully declined, thus missing the opportunity to influence the future development of Europe. However, by 1961 it had become obvious that the economies of "the Six", (France, West Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg), were growing faster than ours, so we applied to join. It took 9 years of negotiations, (and 2 vetoes), before terms were agreed. The United Kingdom officially joined the European Communities on 1st January 1973.
In the 1980s many of our skilled workers took advantage of the free movement of people and migrated to West Germany, whose economy had already overtaken ours. These British " migrants" were the inspiration for a popular television series, "Auf Wiedersehen, Pet".
Since 1945 there have been wars in Europe, but none between countries that were members of the European Union. Despite global economic storms, the EU's citizens in 28 independent countries enjoy greater prosperity and greater freedom of movement, freedom from discrimination, freedom from conflict, freedom to trade across borders and freedom of expression than at any time in history.
So far no country has ever applied to leave the EU. There have always been candidates to join but to succeed they must have democracy, the rule of law, a market economy and guarantees for the protection of minorities and human rights. They also need the support of ALL existing members, including us, without which they cannot join.
Little Englander wasn't a term I'd heard before until I started watching An Idiot Abroad. They refer to the friend they send traveling as a Little Englander. I figured out what it meant from its context but didn't realize it was a genuine term. Interesting.
I'm sure it's a big question to answer, but what are the main benefits of countries joining the EU? Is there a financial advantage? (This seems to be the main motivation for many things.)
There may be the less tangible advantages of reducing nationalism (assuming a person thinks that's a good thing). ??
ETA: Ber just posted this on FB. Is this an accurate summary?
Here's a bit of pre-EU history to help explain my position.
I grew up in a time of post-war austerity. My country, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, was broke and virtually in ruins. Germans were still "the enemy" in children's games. Bomb sites and abandoned air-raid shelters were our playgrounds. Nine years after the war ended butter, meat and sugar were still rationed. One couldn't buy sweets without coupons issued by the government.
Portugal and Spain were fascist dictatorships. In Spain unauthorised gatherings of more than 3 people were illegal. A military junta later seized power in Greece. Half of Europe was sealed off behind the Iron Curtain. I remember lying in bed at night, in my parents home, and hearing the roar of American warplanes flying overhead on their Cold War missions. We were told that, if the Russians unleashed their missiles, we would get 4 minutes' warning of Armageddon.
In Britain our currency was weak. We had exchange controls. Travellers were allowed to take only £25 sterling out of the country plus a limited amount in foreign currency. On return, any left over had to be sold back to an authorised trader. The details were entered in one's passport. (See photo.)
The UK still had the death penalty despite some obvious and irreversible miscarriages of justice. In France they still executed condemned prisoners by cutting their heads off. In Spain they used strangulation.
The press and the BBC, (there was only the BBC), were not free from government interference and books, films and plays were censored. Women were paid less than men for equivalent work and landlords could turn away black and Irish people with impunity. For private acts of "gross indecency" gay men were sent to prison.
During the 1950s, six similarly devastated European countries were determined that the catastrophe of war between them should never be repeated. They decided to work towards creating a single European economy. The result was never "just a trading agreement" as some detractors now suggest. The Treaty of Rome, signed in 1957, provided for free movement of goods, services, people and capital, with the stated aim of "closer relations between the States".
The UK was invited to participate from the outset, but Prime Minister Attlee rather scornfully declined, thus missing the opportunity to influence the future development of Europe. However, by 1961 it had become obvious that the economies of "the Six", (France, West Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg), were growing faster than ours, so we applied to join. It took 9 years of negotiations, (and 2 vetoes), before terms were agreed. The United Kingdom officially joined the European Communities on 1st January 1973.
In the 1980s many of our skilled workers took advantage of the free movement of people and migrated to West Germany, whose economy had already overtaken ours. These British " migrants" were the inspiration for a popular television series, "Auf Wiedersehen, Pet".
Since 1945 there have been wars in Europe, but none between countries that were members of the European Union. Despite global economic storms, the EU's citizens in 28 independent countries enjoy greater prosperity and greater freedom of movement, freedom from discrimination, freedom from conflict, freedom to trade across borders and freedom of expression than at any time in history.
So far no country has ever applied to leave the EU. There have always been candidates to join but to succeed they must have democracy, the rule of law, a market economy and guarantees for the protection of minorities and human rights. They also need the support of ALL existing members, including us, without which they cannot join.
Re: Brexit
That post reminded of something. Some years ago, the EU won the Nobel Peace Prize. It had been something like six decades since WWII. The member nations had not taken up arms against each other in that span of time. On one hand, it seems silly to reward a gang of nations for not having war...but sixty years is a long time. A lifetime, almost. When you look at history, how often does a stretch of peace that long occur? Especially in Europe. It seems like that continent has spent most of its recorded history blowing itself up.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
Re: Brexit
I never saw the Nobel Price of Peace given to the European Union only as a reward for not having war - it is also the recognition of creating a new political dynamics making war between European Nations not only non-existent but virtually unthinkable. Nobody can even imagine a war between Germany and France now - and these two countries have been fighting each other regularly since the Middle Ages. They were the hereditary ennemies. And this is gone, over - a new way of seeing your neighbors, a new way of seeing war has taken place. And this new political creation is imho quite unique and more than enough deserves a Nobel Prize of Peace.
Anyway in the history of Europe there has NEVER before been such a period of peace and this is all the more important as European conflicts tended to invade and influence on other countries and continents, or even become worldwide. Both of the world wars started in Europe. I am not quite sure how it would be about the history of other continents if you have a close look - e.g. Asia or Africa (or pre-columbian America): the problem is that we tend to consider that European history is "World" history (there are some very interesting books about that "theft of history"). But I de fear that most of the past is war, wherever you look.
Lali, I do not know that much about British history. I know that in Germany the 50ies were in their first half a time of recovery from the War and integrating refugees. My mother only arrived in 1951 in Germany, she had lived 6 years in a Danish refugee camp after WWII. They had virtually nothing. Not a house, not a bike, not more than one pair of shoes per person, not a stove or a baking form - my grand-mother had fled Poland with two suitcases and five kids under 8. In camp, she did not get a lot more. Ten years later, shortly before ma parents married, her mother had bought a house (on credit, of course). My grand-mother had bought a car for her three sons and all kids were at school or university. But, they never travelled, my grand-mother did not own a washing machine all her life, and my mother stole her wedding dress for the civic ceremony because there was no money for two dresses. She ironed twice a week for an American family and told me she could never understand how many things they were throwing away... It was unconceivable for her. The 60ies were a time of unknown prosperity in Germany, but also in France. Was it because of the European community? Other factors? General prosperity? Italy was a founding member, unlike the UK and yet did not have the economic prosperity of France of Germany.
Maybe also to give you a perspective: there have been no wars between member states of the European Union, but in general, two democracies have never or hardly ever gone to war against each other. I don't want to paint the devil on the wall: if there is a Brexit, there won't be a war in Europe either. Switzerland is not a member and is one fo the most prosperous countries in the world and such is Norway. But being in the European Union, to me means the decision to be ready to take somehow "the next step" in history, to be ready to overcome the principle of nation states which has been the bane (or if you want to be less judgemental the state form) of the 20th century. Leaving the EU is a step backwards for the UK and not only the UK but all other member states of the EU.
Anyway in the history of Europe there has NEVER before been such a period of peace and this is all the more important as European conflicts tended to invade and influence on other countries and continents, or even become worldwide. Both of the world wars started in Europe. I am not quite sure how it would be about the history of other continents if you have a close look - e.g. Asia or Africa (or pre-columbian America): the problem is that we tend to consider that European history is "World" history (there are some very interesting books about that "theft of history"). But I de fear that most of the past is war, wherever you look.
Lali, I do not know that much about British history. I know that in Germany the 50ies were in their first half a time of recovery from the War and integrating refugees. My mother only arrived in 1951 in Germany, she had lived 6 years in a Danish refugee camp after WWII. They had virtually nothing. Not a house, not a bike, not more than one pair of shoes per person, not a stove or a baking form - my grand-mother had fled Poland with two suitcases and five kids under 8. In camp, she did not get a lot more. Ten years later, shortly before ma parents married, her mother had bought a house (on credit, of course). My grand-mother had bought a car for her three sons and all kids were at school or university. But, they never travelled, my grand-mother did not own a washing machine all her life, and my mother stole her wedding dress for the civic ceremony because there was no money for two dresses. She ironed twice a week for an American family and told me she could never understand how many things they were throwing away... It was unconceivable for her. The 60ies were a time of unknown prosperity in Germany, but also in France. Was it because of the European community? Other factors? General prosperity? Italy was a founding member, unlike the UK and yet did not have the economic prosperity of France of Germany.
Maybe also to give you a perspective: there have been no wars between member states of the European Union, but in general, two democracies have never or hardly ever gone to war against each other. I don't want to paint the devil on the wall: if there is a Brexit, there won't be a war in Europe either. Switzerland is not a member and is one fo the most prosperous countries in the world and such is Norway. But being in the European Union, to me means the decision to be ready to take somehow "the next step" in history, to be ready to overcome the principle of nation states which has been the bane (or if you want to be less judgemental the state form) of the 20th century. Leaving the EU is a step backwards for the UK and not only the UK but all other member states of the EU.
"nolite te bastardes carborundorum".
Re: Brexit
I am not an expert in modern history, and when talking about modern history I take the Oxford view that it began in 1241.
However this is my take
the fifties for most of Europe was a period of rebuilding, in the UK massive investments were made in social services including health care, housing, pensions - the objective being to give everybody dignity, a proper share in the country. We had full employment, health care including dentistry and drugs free at the point of need.
We had a society where equality of opportunity was becoming a possibility, and the wealth gap was closing.
The Labour Government had nationalised the coal and steel industries, the railways, the buses and the airlines, this investment in the mixed economy led to unprecedented growth through the sixties. These policies were supported by all political parties as the benefits were recognised.
In Germany the country was supported by the Marshall plan, where the American Government invested directly into Western Germany, and both the US and the UK based many thousands of troops and hundreds of planes in Germany, which also brought cash into Germany. I am less clear on what happened in France, but I would offer a view that it's pretty difficult ever to assess the performance of the economy in Italy because so much of what goes on there is under the radar, some authorities reckon as much as 25% is hidden. You also have a strong degree of regionalisation between German levels of prosperity and performance in Túrin and Milan, compared to third world levels of poverty in the south.
Switzerland has undoubtedly benefited from it's small size, lack of threat to any other nation, which has led it to become the classic "neutral " state, the safe haven where money can be deposited and large service fees charged, unlike the rest of Europe Switzerland was untouched, and indeed benefited from the 2 world wars, it's non membership of the EU is neither here nor there as far as it's economic success is concerned.
Norway is wealthy because it successfully invested it's oil and gas wealth in projects in the country. Unlike the UK which useed it's oil receipts to fund the social security payments of the hundreds of thousands who were put out of work by the Thatcher junta
Norway suffers because it has signed a trade treaty with the EU which forces it to abide by all EU regulations, and yet does not have a say in how they are developed - truly the worst of all worlds
However this is my take
the fifties for most of Europe was a period of rebuilding, in the UK massive investments were made in social services including health care, housing, pensions - the objective being to give everybody dignity, a proper share in the country. We had full employment, health care including dentistry and drugs free at the point of need.
We had a society where equality of opportunity was becoming a possibility, and the wealth gap was closing.
The Labour Government had nationalised the coal and steel industries, the railways, the buses and the airlines, this investment in the mixed economy led to unprecedented growth through the sixties. These policies were supported by all political parties as the benefits were recognised.
In Germany the country was supported by the Marshall plan, where the American Government invested directly into Western Germany, and both the US and the UK based many thousands of troops and hundreds of planes in Germany, which also brought cash into Germany. I am less clear on what happened in France, but I would offer a view that it's pretty difficult ever to assess the performance of the economy in Italy because so much of what goes on there is under the radar, some authorities reckon as much as 25% is hidden. You also have a strong degree of regionalisation between German levels of prosperity and performance in Túrin and Milan, compared to third world levels of poverty in the south.
Switzerland has undoubtedly benefited from it's small size, lack of threat to any other nation, which has led it to become the classic "neutral " state, the safe haven where money can be deposited and large service fees charged, unlike the rest of Europe Switzerland was untouched, and indeed benefited from the 2 world wars, it's non membership of the EU is neither here nor there as far as it's economic success is concerned.
Norway is wealthy because it successfully invested it's oil and gas wealth in projects in the country. Unlike the UK which useed it's oil receipts to fund the social security payments of the hundreds of thousands who were put out of work by the Thatcher junta
Norway suffers because it has signed a trade treaty with the EU which forces it to abide by all EU regulations, and yet does not have a say in how they are developed - truly the worst of all worlds
Since 1410 most Welsh people most of the time have abandoned any idea of independence as unthinkable. But since 1410 most Welsh people, at some time or another, if only in some secret corner of the mind, have been "out with Owain and his barefoot scrubs." For the Welsh mind is still haunted by it's lightning-flash vision of a people that was free.
Gwyn A. Williams,
Gwyn A. Williams,
Re: Brexit
Monty Python would be proud! (Language warning!)
https://www.facebook.com/theguardian/vi ... nref=story
https://www.facebook.com/theguardian/vi ... nref=story
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End
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JewelSong
- Just Keep Singin'
- Posts: 4660
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:35 am
- Location: Boston, MA
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Re: Brexit
Lord. I love Patrick Stewart.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame
Re: Brexit
Thanks for the link Alatar, it's a timely reminder that I live in the most stupid and prejudiced of nations.
The numpty assumption that Magna Carta in some way enshrines freedom and well-being for ordinary people is just breath-taking. Briefly the background to Manga Carta is as follows, King John(he of the bad press) had introduced a series of reforms through which he sought to restore the exchequer of the Kingdom following the ruinous actions of Richard the First, whose Crusades and other adventure had bankrupted the country. By means of these efficiencies he was able to exact a far greater tax from the barons. Much like as today rich people hate paying their fare share of tax, and so they rebelled and forced him to sign Magna Carta, which effectively limited his rights to collect in money.
It's a bit like saying ancient Athens was a modern democracy, when I guess less than 20% of the people could actually vote.
The numpty assumption that Magna Carta in some way enshrines freedom and well-being for ordinary people is just breath-taking. Briefly the background to Manga Carta is as follows, King John(he of the bad press) had introduced a series of reforms through which he sought to restore the exchequer of the Kingdom following the ruinous actions of Richard the First, whose Crusades and other adventure had bankrupted the country. By means of these efficiencies he was able to exact a far greater tax from the barons. Much like as today rich people hate paying their fare share of tax, and so they rebelled and forced him to sign Magna Carta, which effectively limited his rights to collect in money.
It's a bit like saying ancient Athens was a modern democracy, when I guess less than 20% of the people could actually vote.
Since 1410 most Welsh people most of the time have abandoned any idea of independence as unthinkable. But since 1410 most Welsh people, at some time or another, if only in some secret corner of the mind, have been "out with Owain and his barefoot scrubs." For the Welsh mind is still haunted by it's lightning-flash vision of a people that was free.
Gwyn A. Williams,
Gwyn A. Williams,
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JewelSong
- Just Keep Singin'
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Re: Brexit
Well, considering the current political state of the USA and the presumptive GOP nominee, I'll see your stupid and prejudiced nation and raise you an ignorant and uninformed mass.eborr wrote:Thanks for the link Alatar, it's a timely reminder that I live in the most stupid and prejudiced of nations.
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame
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JewelSong
- Just Keep Singin'
- Posts: 4660
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:35 am
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Re: Brexit
Well, considering the current political state of the USA and the presumptive GOP nominee, I'll see your stupid and prejudiced nation and raise you an ignorant and uninformed mass.eborr wrote:Thanks for the link Alatar, it's a timely reminder that I live in the most stupid and prejudiced of nations.
Last edited by JewelSong on Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
- Posts: 1076
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Re: Brexit
With any luck a successful Brexit would finally push Scottish independence over the top.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
-- Samuel Adams
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Túrin Turambar
- Posts: 6153
- Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:37 am
- Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Re: Brexit
With the vote less than a week away, the campaigns have been suspended following the shocking assassination of pro-EU Labour MP Jo Cox. The last assassination of a British MP was in 1990, when Ian Gow was killed by an IRA bomb. Not much is known about the attacker - I've read various reports that he was shouting "Britain first", that he had links to Neo-Nazi organisations, and/or that he had escaped from a mental hospital. No doubt more facts will emerge in time.
Re: Brexit
Really horrible. I am so saddened by this murder of someone who really seems to have been trying to do the right thing.
“Wilbur never forgot Charlotte. Although he loved her children and grandchildren dearly, none of the new spiders ever quite took her place in his heart. She was in a class by herself. It is not often that someone comes along who is a true friend and a good writer. Charlotte was both.” E. B. White, who must have had vison in mind. There's a reason why we kept putting the extra i in her name in our minds!
Re: Brexit
Jo Cox's dreadful murder: the link with right-wing extremism has been confirmed. 
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... l-activist
What a deluded soul.
And yes, he does seem to have had mental health issues.
People are getting very heated about the way this is being reported. Personally, I don't think either aspect should be ignored - clearly he was a very troubled person, but the fact that he had links to extremist groups must not be glossed over either.
It is clear from the outpouring of grief and affection from her family, her constituents and her fellow MPs - across the political spectrum - that Jo Cox was an outstanding woman. We so need people of her quality.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... p-birstall
A 77 year old local man tried to save her from the attack and was stabbed himself - he is in hospital, but his life is not in danger. He was a mine rescue veteran. (It's a Yorkshire village.) What a hero.
I am cross and apprehensive about the way this mess of a Referendum has been conducted: it's such an important vote, and the campaign has been handled so badly. I feel trepidation about the outcome next week. I really, really hope the nation votes Remain, but I'm bracing myself for Out, which is not the result I want.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... l-activist
What a deluded soul.
And yes, he does seem to have had mental health issues. People are getting very heated about the way this is being reported. Personally, I don't think either aspect should be ignored - clearly he was a very troubled person, but the fact that he had links to extremist groups must not be glossed over either.
It is clear from the outpouring of grief and affection from her family, her constituents and her fellow MPs - across the political spectrum - that Jo Cox was an outstanding woman. We so need people of her quality.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... p-birstall
A 77 year old local man tried to save her from the attack and was stabbed himself - he is in hospital, but his life is not in danger. He was a mine rescue veteran. (It's a Yorkshire village.) What a hero.
I am cross and apprehensive about the way this mess of a Referendum has been conducted: it's such an important vote, and the campaign has been handled so badly. I feel trepidation about the outcome next week. I really, really hope the nation votes Remain, but I'm bracing myself for Out, which is not the result I want.
"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... "
Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
Avatar by goldlighticons on Live Journal
Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
Avatar by goldlighticons on Live Journal
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WampusCat
- Creature of the night
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Re: Brexit
Unfortunately, it looks like Remain has lost.
Take my hand, my friend. We are here to walk one another home.
Avatar from Fractal_OpenArtGroup
Avatar from Fractal_OpenArtGroup
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Hachimitsu
- Formerly Wilma
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