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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:33 pm 
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Living in hope
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But you do get to choose iconography that guides people toward something they ought to remember. Learning isn't about being told things you already know, however good it feels to relive a great moment.

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:35 pm 
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of Vinyamar
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I just don't think currency is the right medium for that, but hey, its your country! :)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:39 pm 
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Yup--for better, for worse; for richer, for poorer. . . .

Last word from me: Faces on money are an honor this country takes seriously, and these days, at least, it's carefully awarded. And I think that's a good thing, not a waste of time.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:08 pm 
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Harriet Tubman has status akin to that of a folk hero within the US, Al. It's not our problem that you've never heard of her.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:13 pm 
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of Vinyamar
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You know what, fine. I'll back out of your discussions. I was under the impression that non US opinion was welcome here. Apparently not.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:16 pm 
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Living in hope
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There's nothing wrong with your opinion, Alatar. Some people more familiar with American history disagree with it, that's all. It's a discussion, and you have a part in it.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:24 pm 
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It always puzzles me when people interpret disagreement as attack.

I didn't used to know who anyone was on US money except Washington, Lincoln and Franklin. I only found out who Hamilton was because of the milk commercial.

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:34 pm 
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not something I would recommend
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River's comment did come off a bit snarkier than I'm guessing she meant it....

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:53 pm 
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of Vinyamar
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I'm guessing she meant it exactly as snarky as it came off. Whatever.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:35 pm 
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Maybe, maybe not. I value your opinion though. It is interesting to me that Parks is more well known outside of the US then Tubman. That may be due to the difference in era. Parks moment came during the time of modern media, so perhaps she got more exposure for that. Tubman is, admittedly, somewhat deeper in American history, and I would not expect non-Americans to be as familiar with her as with Parks. But she is very important to US history, and if Americans don’t know who she is then they should. I think putting her on the currency is a wonderful idea.

Edit to add: Speaking of Hamilton, Al, every time I look at your sig pic now I am reminded of your daughter singing Alexander Hamilton. That was awesome!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:42 pm 
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I never heard of her until I came across a reference to her in a fantasy novel several years ago, "Island in a Sea of Time". I had to look up why they wanted to name a boat after her. "Who?" :scratch:

Backwoods Missouri education 40 years ago was admittedly deficient in many ways.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:31 am 
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Well, my general thoughts on currency in general are that 1) the practice of putting faces on coins and bills dates back to ancient days, as a means of establishing both the legitimacy of the currency and disseminating to the general public the likenesses of the important people and 2) these days what nations put on their currency is an extension of the story a nation tells itself and others about its past, present, and future. Serbs, for example, are very proud of Nikola Tesla and so his image is on the ten dinar note. Some might think it an odd choice, given he spent a huge chunk of his life outside of Serbia, but I've always figured that, as a foreigner, while I'm entitled to an opinion my opinion doesn't actually matter (though, for the record, I think it's awesome that a nation would opt to put a scientist on their money).

Now, as to the degree to which I was being snarky earlier, I'll just let yov and Al continue to think they can read my mind. After the week I've had, I could use some cheap entertainment. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:58 am 
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Mind reading doesn't come into it. The comment was rude, dismissive and childish and clearly offended a fellow poster, whether you meant it to or not.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:13 am 
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I'll just leave this here in case the mods need it later
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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:40 am 
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I thought River's comment was meant in light jest. I didn't think it was snarky or rude or any of those other things!

Bottom line is that most people in the USA ARE familiar with Harriet Tubman and what she did...and did over the course of many years. I think it is interesting (but not altogether surprising) that people outside the USA may not have heard of her, because her deeds took place more than 150 years ago, and not in the immediate past.

Rosa Parks is a name known to many as part of the beginning of the modern civil rights movement, but the fact is, she was chosen ahead of time to do what she did and her "defiance" in not moving to the back of the bus was a carefully scripted act. Her fame is more the stuff of legend than of fact. Her act did begin a change, but she herself was basically a small cog in a very big wheel.

Tubman, on the other hand, was the real deal.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:37 am 
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River wrote:
Now, as to the degree to which I was being snarky earlier, I'll just let yov and Al continue to think they can read my mind. After the week I've had, I could use some cheap entertainment. :)


Hey now, I did say I was guessing. Which, ya know, is really all we can ever do when trying to interpret the intentions of other humans.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:03 am 
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For what it's worth, as a non-American I was far more familiar with Rosa Parks than Harriet Tubman, but that's probably because Parks has been in the news on occasion while Tubman hasn't (until this news broke). Looking over both, though, I agree that Tubman is the better choice.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:18 am 
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It is really difficult in the general context of friendship, which I do think prevails on this board, to assume that a snarkish comment was meant to harm. I prefer to believe that it was meant in a friendly nudging or teasing way. I'm prepared to learn differently, but until someone tells me otherwise, or asks me to think otherwise, I will continue to assume that no harm was intended.

If people are harmed all the same, that's different—but I need to know that, if I don't see it myself. I don't see everything.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:52 pm 
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Alatar wrote:
The last proper Irish currency (Pre-Euro) was populated by characters from Literature and the Arts. I approve of this!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_B_Banknotes


So do I! I like that very much! :)

Alatar wrote:
Well, speaking as a non-American, I have no idea who Tubman is. My kids thought Rosa Parks would have been a better choice, and I can't say I disagree. You want a woman who changed the face of America? There you go.


We had a relevant discussion on the m00t, I think. You asked me what I knew about Hamilton. Sad to say, it wasn't much beyond that he'd gotten killed in a duel over some kind of political disagreement. If we had thought to discuss Tubman, however, I could have told you a lot more than that! I admire her greatly and the work she did during the Civil War to free slaves. She's one of those folk heroes to me, so I'm quite pleased that she's going to be honored on our currency. I like for things to get shaken up every now and then. <shrug>

I think non-American opinions are interesting, and I'm surprised that Rosa Parks is more well known than Harriet Tubman. But I shouldn't be; why should another country necessarily care about our history beyond its general outlines and its impact on the world? Rosa Parks is a great story, too, and I would love to see her remembered and honored in a special way as well. She was more than just the right person in the right place at the right time. She was actively involved in the Civil Rights Movement both before and after the bus incident.

Primula Baggins wrote:
I had fun going to Wikipedia ("List of people on United States banknotes"). It was surprising.

People who are on or have been on U.S. paper currency but are neither Founders nor presidents include: ...


That's an interesting list. On coins, we have had a couple of women. Sacagawea and Susan B. Anthony come to mind.

Coming into this discussion late and reading it all in one go, River's comment struck me as harsh. :neutral: (FWIW, which is not much given that the discussion has moved on already.)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:22 pm 
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I am another non-American who had never heard of Harriet Tubman before (and remember, I teach history - I even own American history schoolbooks, several of them). Rosa Parks, on the other hand, was well-known to me.

Personally, I'd love to see Martin Luther King on a banknote.

Putting scientists on money is by the way quite current. Germany had Gauss on the 10 Mark note, the Swiss had Euler (both mathematicians) and France had Pasteur and in the last series of the French franc; Pierre and Marie Curie - who was Polish born. Artists are even more common.

In fact, from my point of view, putting politicians on money notes, be they living or dead, is the exception. From what I see it is a tradition in anglo-saxon countries - and in dictatures... Could it be a way to glorify your leaders rather than your ideas or culture? If you see it like that, Harriet Tubman is a more than welcome change...

Persons on banknotes are such a touchy subject that the Euro went for an abstract subject (architecture) because there was no personality which was equally accepted in all of the European countries member of the Euro Zone. Coins differ from country to country.

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