Gun Control Debate

[Inanna]

Brilliant.

And so sad...

[RoseMorninStar]

Me too.

It's not only guns, it's our entire culture of 'solving' problems with violence & weapons that needs a good hard rethink.

[Maria]

Before we bought any guns and right after we moved onto our farm, we found a deer hopelessly caught in a barbed wire fence. The poor thing had skinned its leg down to the bone. My husband got out his pocket knife to cut its throat and put it out of its misery, and the deer lunged, struck him with a hoof and the knife went deep into his arm.

An ambulance ride, an ER visit and many stitches later we decided that this wasn't going to happen again. We bought a deer rifle not long afterwards.

We now have several different firearms for different purposes. The deer rifle is obviously for hunting deer, but it can also serve to put down cattle when necessary. .22 rifles are good for shooting coyotes that might come after our sheep. A pistol is good for shooting dastardly_chicken_massacring_raccoons caught in a live trap.

We have a shotgun for shooting clay pigeons with. It's a sport. "Pull!" The clay disk flies. The shooter tracks and shoots it in the air. I don't do it because I don't like my shoulder getting beat up by the shotgun, but almost every visitor we have eventually tries it. Also, we let them shoot the .22s at stationary targets. It's a hand / eye coordination game, really.

You all act like everyone owning firearms has them for some irrational purpose. Farmers need them. Many people just like to shoot them as a targeting game. Not everyone is a nut case spinning zombie apocalypse fantasies, or paranoid about home defense.

They are a tool. Some people misuse them. The vast majority of gun owners do not. Thinking up ways to make guns impossibly hard to buy is an exercise in .... well, I'm having trouble thinking of exactly the right word.... an exercise in spitefulness that I find repugnant.

[RoseMorninStar]

Farmers/ranchers/people who live in other countries have the same issues farmers/ranchers/people such as yourself (Maria) have, and people in those countries also have guns for some of the same purposes you mention. But those countries also have fewer guns, stricter laws, and fewer gun-related murders/deaths/accidents. I grew up in a family of responsible gun owners who went duck/deer hunting. Hubby & I used to belong to a Civil war group. Hubby target shot with a musket and a carbine for 'hobby'. So I do understand there is a place for guns, but the gun culture mentality in the US today is NOTHING like it was 30, 40, 50 years ago. It has lost all reason and it shows in the number of gun deaths and gun violence. Some people (a small percentage) have turned guns into something akin to worship. That is what has changed and we, as a country, are paying the price.

As per my previous comment, it's not only guns that are a problem. It's the attitude of 'solving' every issue with force, violence, & weapons. Compromise and diplomacy are seen as weak and unnecessary, which is foolish. The problem is likely one of greed, which has been perpetuated by those who will profit from 'gun nuttery' (something I view as separate from responsible gun ownership).

A couple of years ago two men in a small quiet town not far from here (Appleton, WI) carried AR-15 rifles to the downtown farmers market claiming they needed them 'for protection' (they were also carrying concealed pistols). Yes, it was legal, but this was not responsible gun ownership for practical or sporting purposes. This was meant to terrify (terrorism) and alarm and threaten. Just as the Neo-Nazi's in Charlottesville carried their guns & torches in their march. It was an act meant to terrorize. There was no practical purpose for those guns (unless they considered it 'sport' which I would find simply abhorrent and disgusting.) If someone of color had been carrying those same weapons in those same situations I have little doubt they would have been shot or arrested.

Something has gone awry and needs to be put back into reasonable perspective.

[Sunsilver]

Agree, Rose! Here's what the NRA was posting just before the Las Vegas shooting:
It chills my blood!

https://thinkprogress.org/nra-everythin ... 81dac6706/

[RoseMorninStar]

Ugh. Exactly the type of thing I'm talking about Sunny. That is freaking messed up.

[Frelga]

Yonatan Zunger made a post recently that I feel is directly applicable to the last few posts. It was prompted by a set of maps that plotted total gun deaths, gun homicides, and gun suicides.

https://plus.google.com/+YonatanZunger/ ... UhgxopCNfF

These two graphs are driven by very different things. Gun homicides are likely tied to guns acquired specifically for antipersonnel purposes, be they "self-defense" or "murder." Gun suicides, on the other hand, may well simply be tied to these being the areas where people are more likely to have guns for other reasons – e.g. for hunting – and so they become the natural tool of self-harm as well.

What this really emphasizes is the extent to which the cultural understanding and significance of guns in the US is geographic. A gun in LA or Chicago is there for killing people; a gun in Utah or Tennessee is there for hunting or varmint control. And because our geography is increasingly connected with our politics, which in turn is increasingly connected with who we talk to, people are increasingly unlikely to know people across these boundaries – or to realize that guns mean something completely different in different places, and come with completely different sets of risks.

[RoseMorninStar]

Thanks Frelga. Very interesting post/graphs. The writer makes valid points. The US is a big country and the cultural divide between regions is huge with the gap growing wider at a rapid pace. Hopefully someone more clever than I will come up with solutions.

[Maria]

The gap is growing because the urban population is growing so fast. The rural population has stayed pretty much the same for the past hundred years, but the urban populations have skyrocketed. That's causing a more and more serious cultural rift.

census.png (119.14 KiB) Viewed 6341 times

“Rural areas cover 97 percent of the nation’s land area but contain 19.3 percent of the population (about 60 million people),” Census Bureau Director John H. Thompson said. This is the article: https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-r ... 6-210.html

[Inanna]

Maria, OVERALL, the population is growing. And one of the reasons, urban is growing faster than rural because there is a movement from rural to urban, and not vice-versa.

There is not much difference in birth rates across urban and rural in the U.S. (source: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/ppt/nchs2015/B ... nD_BB1.pdf)

[Maria]

I didn't say the birth rates in the cities were higher. I thought it went without saying that people migrate from rural areas to urban much more frequently than vice versa. According to the census numbers, the rural population level has stayed fairly steady for a century. The urban has not.

Hollywood has played a part in increasing the cultural divide, also. How many horror movies involve rural or isolated settings? It's a definite trope. And on the flip side, how many rural people are scared of cities? It's not just me- it's a noted cultural phenomenon.

[Frelga]

Side note - after driving through some of the Midwest, I now understand why corn fields inspired so many horror stories.

Side note 2 - as I'm sure I've mentioned already, my perspective in all this is of a person who was required to pass target shooting test in high school and passed time waiting for a bus at the little air gun ranges that were everywhere.

I guess I can see both sides?

[RoseMorninStar]

WIth the rural population moving to urban areas, one would presume they bring their culture/cultural ideas with them(?)

Frelga, You had to pass a target shooting test in High School?? I learned transcendental meditation.

[yovargas]

What was the final? You have 45 minutes to reach transcendence or you fail?

[RoseMorninStar]

What was the final? You have 45 minutes to reach transcendence or you fail?

I am trying to remember if it was an elective for Health class or part of one of the Psych classes I took. It's been a looong time. I still use the techniques I learned & it has helped with stress and headaches.

[Frelga]

Frelga, You had to pass a target shooting test in High School?? I learned transcendental meditation.

Well, girls mostly passed by hitting the correct wall. They were stricter with the boys, who were expected to spend two years in the army starting at eighteen. But I hit the actual target and was very proud.

[Maria]

WIth the rural population moving to urban areas, one would presume they bring their culture/cultural ideas with them(?)

Not really, especially if they left the farm because they hated the life. People like to fit in.

All three of my adult children live in large cities now. I doubt any of them will ever have the urge to live on a multi acre property ever again.... well, maybe, if the place had decent internet speed. But certainly, none of them are pining for the countryside. They had to move to cities to find jobs that would satisfy their intellects. Mostly, they don't fancy coming back.

[yovargas]

But wouldn't they take their viewpoints and attitudes, on things like guns, with them?

[RoseMorninStar]

That is what I was thinking yvargas. There are people who may not wish to live/work in an isolated rural area, but when they move they take with them perhaps the love of fishing, hunting, shooting, country music, trucks, and a great many other things that are not typically urban or suburban. Urban cowboys. How does the saying go? You can take the boy out of the country but you can't take the country out of the boy.

I live in a suburban/rural area and guns, hunting, and trucks are a pretty big thing. In town, an indoor shooting range moved into an old art museum across from the public library. Thankfully that has since moved to the outskirts of town. I don't begrudge someone hunting, but toting guns around town and taking them into the library -- well, it seems to be more about shock, instilling fear, and terror than 'protection'.

Is that (hippo) Fiona? She's so adorable.

[Maria]

But wouldn't they take their viewpoints and attitudes, on things like guns, with them?

They might accept ownership of firearms as normal, but they are unlikely to spread the idea much. There just isn't much opportunity for gun familiarization in cities unless you pay to go to a shooting range. Which is why the sport is novel enough that most people are intrigued and want to try target shooting when they visit us. My husband and I have both had prior experience teaching shooting, so we can provide a safe environment for doing so. People also try our bows and arrows for that matter.

And none of you realize how hard it is for me to call a rifle or a pistol a gun. It's a military jargon thing drilled deep into my brain when I was in the Army. Guns are artillery pieces. You refer to rifles and pistols as either a weapon, a firearm or specifically what it is e.g. - "my M-16". You call one a gun under pain of extreme humiliation.