Gun Control Debate

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Looking at the listing of "number of guns per capita" I see that Serbia is second to the U.S. but it still is little more than half (101 versus 58.21). This list, however, is from 2007 so it might have changed one way or the other since then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated ... by_country

[Maria]

Automatic and semi-automatic weapons are like tanks. They have little to no business as part of everyday life in ordinary society.

Semi-automatic weapons are very, very common and the reload function is extremely useful. You will never, ever get people to agree to going back to lever action rifles, for instance. It's just not going to happen. If you are hunting deer, and happen to miss on the first shot- or only wound- you have a second bullet right there waiting to go rather than a couple of seconds delay while you work the action on the rifle. It can make the difference between a mortally wounded deer running off to die in agony hours or days later and a quick death.

And probably every handgun you've ever seen on tv is a semi-automatic. Well, maybe not the revolvers you see on old western movies, where the shooter has to rotate the cylinder manually for another shot. But almost everything else is semi-automatic.

Saying semi-automatic weapons have no business in every day life is just.... (trying to think of the right word) .... inaccurate. As long as firearms are legal to own, semi-automatic ones will be the preferred style. Single shots for *anything* is just taking a risk of something bad happening during the reload moment.

The big thing about AR 15s (as I understand it) is that they are extremely easy to convert to fully automatic. I'm not about to look up how to do it (that's bound to get a person put on a watch list!) but I've heard it only takes a few minutes without specialized tools. Just replace or modify a pin or something. That is a problem. From a couple of forums I looked at yesterday, the Ruger mini 14 is not the same way. Ruger doesn't let repair parts out of it's possession and if you need to get it fixed, you have to send it back to the manufacturer.

Repair parts for AR 15s, on the other hand, are so readily available that you could build one from scratch from repair parts, if my source was correct. Again, I'm not going to google that exact question. Yeah, I'm a tad paranoid about internet surveillance.

[tinwë]

Saying semi-automatic weapons have no business in every day life is just.... (trying to think of the right word) .... inaccurate. As long as firearms are legal to own, semi-automatic ones will be the preferred style. Single shots for *anything* is just taking a risk of something bad happening during the reload moment.

Does a semi-automatic with a 30 round magazine have any business in everyday life?

[Maria]

Only if you are shooting herds of feral horses or packs of feral hogs.

[tinwë]

Does that happen?

[Maria]

I just looked up the horse thing. They are mostly talking about euthanizing the caught wild horses that no one will adopt, not shooting the free ranging ones. So I'm wrong on that unless they change their policy.

Hogs, however, are so widespread and so destructive that most states encourage killing them as much as possible. A quick google brought up this site- which seems rather reckless to me. Shooting from a helicopter has to hurt accuracy. https://www.helibacon.com/texas-helicopter-hog-hunting/

edit: and how the heck to do they get to offer fully automatic weapons?

[yovargas]

As long as firearms are legal to own, semi-automatic ones will be the preferred style. Single shots for *anything* is just taking a risk of something bad happening during the reload moment.

I mean, I get this, and I get that being realistically in our political climate these weapons are almost certainly here to stay. And I also do want to be fair and understanding towards those gun owners who use these weapons for legitimate reasons, particularly people in rural and farmland areas. But if we have good, solid research that shows banning automatic weapons would likely save many thousands of human lives annually, well, the argument that hunting will be less convenient doesn't have much weight in comparison. I think asking gun owners to live with crappier guns so that there are fewer mass killings is not at all an ounerous request.

[Frelga]

Well, the president has the solution, which by complete coincidence quotes the NRA talking points almost verbatim. "Harden schools?" Has he been to a school?

Via NYT.

IMG_20180222_095751.jpg (101.57 KiB) Viewed 9543 times

[Túrin Turambar]

In Australia, the 1996 gun laws divided firearms into different classes, each class with its own licence. The licence class for a semi-automatic is now very difficult to get, and from memory is only available to sports shooters and people who own agricultural land. This doesn’t seem like an unreasonable compromise to me, as the only really essential civilian use for a semi-automatic rifle I can think of it hunting pest animals like rabbits which are fast and can breed in large numbers. Like yov, I don’t think forcing other hunters to use lever-action or bolt-action rifles is too much of an imposition. People hunted fine before semi-automatics were on the market. Likewise, in every case I’ve ever heard where someone successfully defended themselves with a handgun, they would have been just as safe with a revolver.

The other feature of the Australian licencing system I like is that recreational shooters must be members of shooting clubs. This makes the gun-owning community somewhat self-regulating, as clubs have a very strong incentive not to admit people who are likely to commit crimes and so create a public demand for further restrictions on gun ownership.

Also from memory, Canada has similar principles behind its gun laws, although they permit semi-automatics to be owned in more circumstances.

At any rate, dividing firearms into classes and imposing heavier restrictions on semi-automatics seems elementary to me.

[Maria]

But if we have good, solid research that shows banning automatic weapons would likely save many thousands of human lives annually, well, the argument that hunting will be less convenient doesn't have much weight in comparison.

Automatic weapon = one trigger pull will empty the magazine if you continue to hold it down. bangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbang These are very heavily regulated and VERY difficult for civilians to own- and outright banned in some states.

Semi- automatic = pull trigger / bang/ pull trigger/ bang/ pull trigger/ bang These are the most common sort of firearm, used in hunting rifles and pistols of all sorts. And I say again- They've been commercially available since the 1800s.

Lever action rifle= pull trigger/ bang / pick up gun/ work lever to eject brass/ insert new bullet/ close lever/ bang These are very slow to reload and mostly used in target shooting competitions. Some really good hunters still use them, but most hunters want that second shot to be available to put the animal down if necessary.

Fewer and fewer people are becoming hunters with each generation. Overpopulation of various herbivores followed by starvation and disease will happen (is happening) unless their numbers are culled. You can't ask what hunters are left to thin the herds using old technology. That'll just decrease hunter numbers faster.

Calling for a ban on all semi automatic firearms is a bad thing. I'm all for more regulations to keep them out of the hands of crazy people. Banning them outright is short sighted and wrong.

[yovargas]

*Sorry, did mean to say semi-automatic, not automatic.

Considering that humans were able to do things like nearly wipe out the entire buffalo population with centuries-old technology, I find it strange to hear that hunter's would find this such an unreasonable imposition. But if the compromise must be strict hunting license requirements for semis, that seems fair enough to me.

Not that any of this matters because nothing is going to happen any time soon.

[RoseMorninStar]

Thanks for your insight Túrin Turambar . Many people are under the misconception that Canada, the UK, or Austrailia completely banned all firearms and that is just not true. I agree, dividing firearms into classes and imposing heavier restrictions on certain weapons seems elementary (and basic common sense).

School funding has seen incredible budget cuts over the last 20 years. Almost all programs have seen some cuts, some have been severe. School psychologists and social workers (people who might be able to spot at-risk students) have been cut or done away with altogether. People want lower taxes. So now we should spend more on more guns, more teachers to arm themselves? Good grief. Talk about making no sense! Having 7 or 8 armed teachers in each school would roughly equal 700,000 guns/armed people in Elementary schools alone! We would have more armed teachers than police officers! It is too much to ask for teachers to become a swat team. . We are not living in a war zone. A teacher could be overcome. Some students could see it as a challenge and create problems that were not there to begin with. There almost certainly would be accidents/accidental shootings. Guns could be stolen or taken or (if locked up) not in a position to be used when needed. I am seriously gobsmacked. Up is down and down is up. Other countries have been able to do this (limit the types of weapons that are most often used in mass killings). They have been able to do what is best for their children, their country, for fellow citizens and countrymates, but we 'can't even consider it'?! What does that say about us as Americans? That we are not as smart as people in other countries? That we cannot come up with any other solution or compromise? That we really, REALLY don't care?

Individuality is a strength in the US, as collectivism is in some other countries. Either taken to the extreme is not good. The far too common belief in the US that power and weapons are the answer to all of our problems has serious shortcomings. There is something seriously wrong here.

[Maria]

Oh, no.

3D printed firearms are a thing, now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printed_firearms

[River]

I think the hunters will manage. It's not like yov's proposing a return to muskets. But, then again, I often share an archery range with bow hunters so my view on the technology required to take down an animal is a little skewed.

[Frelga]

I think the hunters will manage. It's not like yov's proposing a return to muskets. But, then again, I often share an archery range with bow hunters so my view on the technology required to take down an animal is a little skewed.

My old boss was a hunter, with pretty much anything legal, and he told me that the limits on how many deer he was allowed to take with a bow were lower than with a gun. Silent weapon, doesn't scare off the rest of the herd.

Native Americans managed to hunt the local megafauna into extinction with bow and spear, so I figure semi-automatic weapons aren't STRICTLY necessary.

[Maria]

My husband has tried bow hunting. The deer hear the string snap and jump before the arrow hits them. I don't know how people manage to successfully bow hunt.

This is interesting- "America's Safest School"

[River]

Some bows are definitely quieter than others.

People have been killing animals and each other with bows and arrows longer than they've been killing animals and each other with firearms. It is possible. It's not easy but it is possible.

[Primula Baggins]

I believe the extinctions were helped along by the tactic of herding animals over cliffs. But bows and arrows can be pretty effective weapons. Just ask the French at Agincourt.

[Frelga]

Meanwhile, in Oregon.

JUST IN: Oregon passes bill banning gun ownership for people with domestic violence convictions

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch ... c-violence

The state has banned those with domestic violence or stalking convictions from owning guns since 2015, but a loophole in the law allowed abusers who aren't living with, married to or have children with the victim to have their guns, according to OregonLive.

[Primula Baggins]

Go us!

Oregon isn't perfect, but it's relatively sane. These days that's saying a lot.