Gun Control Debate

[narya]

So much for making women feel safer with a gun around:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mas ... ddcb44542a

"We found that in 57 percent of mass shootings, the shooter targeted either a family member or an intimate partner."

I'm quite sure that the scenario in the link above would never happen in your particular family, River, and that a gun in your hand might have a few percent chance of saving you and your TV from someone breaking into your house. But by buying guns, we are supporting the lie that "guns always make a home safer" when in fact they often don't. By buying guns, we are reinforcing that lie to those around us, by our directly observable actions. By buying guns, we feel compelled to justify our purchase at dinner parties. By buying guns, we are funding lobby and advertising efforts by the gun industry. The more we support the lie, the more families will die.

Um, yeah, I do feel strongly about this!

[River]

narya, I told my husband that if he brings a gun home I'm packing up myself and the kid and filing for divorce. Then I suggested the crossbow.

from Zoe

ETA: I should probably add that, being an immigrant, S is probably hearing some dog whistles I'm not. And having been in Serbia though the Milosevic years, he's got some rather strong opinions about nationalism and strong men. So I can understand that he might be feeling less than safe...but if he's that scared maybe the solution is to move.

[Impenitent]

I'd suggest Australia but our xenophobic rhetoric has reached unhealthy heights over the last few years.

Posting on phone via Tapatalk

[anthriel]

Mr. S had to sit at the end of the table (so he can move quickly if the situation called for it, apparently... thankfully dinner didn't warrant a split-second armed response for anything, although the salsa REALLY wasn't very good... bad salsa perhaps doesn't deserve a full firepower response, maybe? Perhaps just a little light fisticuffs, to remedy the situation?... )

Yes, it was a very snarky comment to make, but I love that you laughed. This really is my issue with Mr. S's kind of mindset... honestly, I have been out to dinner many times in my life, and I have never seen anything which would require the kind of response Mr. S prepares for every time. My brother-in-law drives an armored truck, and carries a gun. That makes sense to me. Mr. S goes out to dinner at a nice Mexican place, and we have to arrange the seating around his... well, paranoia. Hence the sarcasm.

But you laughed, dear yovi. You understand me. I love that.

(Not that most of you didn't understand what I was writing... I would suspect you did. This place is a rare spot for understanding. )




Imp, Sir V, Rose, Inanna, Lali, thank you for the support. I really was worried! Prim, I truly do understand. Bad salsa might just be on that list of justifiable rage.

ax... it was VERY interesting. And refreshing to speak to people who breed horses who are interested in improving the breed rather than just making a quick buck. Unfortunately, improving the breed is not a profitable short game, so those two men are no longer breeding horses. Money wins.



At the risk of inflaming some feelings here, and I do understand how strongly people feel about this, I want to address the very oft-stated sentences underlined below. The fact that this idea has been written here by two different people just in the last few posts underscores how often this idea is introduced: that people who buy guns for "self-defense" are willing to murder a stranger to protect their TV.

... But the thing about buying a gun for self defense is, you have to decide what you are prepared to kill for. And, for example, protecting my TV isn't it. Expexting to just point a gun in a menacing way is not a good plan.[\quote]

I'm quite sure that the scenario in the link above would never happen in your particular family, River, and that a gun in your hand might have a few percent chance of saving you and your TV from someone breaking into your house. [\quote]

Sometimes, of course, people are trying to break into your house to steal your TV, or whatever other valuables you have. I would suspect that's a pretty common reason for a break-in. But sometimes people who break into your house will hurt you, or your loved ones, or even your animals, because they are scared or over-reactive or just plain evil. The trick is, one doesn't KNOW that a would-be burglar is only there to steal your TV.

I say this because I was actually home alone one day when a man broke into our home. I was in my pj's, ignoring his pounding on the front door, because I was home alone in my pj's and I didn't want to answer the door. He apparently assumed no one was home (which did make sense, given the racket he was making and the fact he got no response), and he broke in.

So here's the deal. I didn't have a gun, still don't, so I wouldn't have shot him with a gun for any reason. Turns out he probably was there just to rob me, given the fact he was 9 days out of jail on robbery and drug charges, and he had drug paraphernalia on him. He wanted my TV, I would think, although the fact he was on his bike makes me thing he was probably after something smaller. Jewelry? Money? I dunno. I flew at him like a banshee from Hell, screaming at the top of my lungs, when my sweet little dog trotted up to him, welcoming that man into my home. Dear Ty never met a stranger. The guy left in a hurry, more of a hint that he wasn't there to hurt me.

Here's the thing, though... I DIDN'T KNOW THAT. He didn't carry a sign. If I'd had a gun, would I have used it? Probably not. BUT I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HE WANTED. If he had tried to hurt me, I might have felt a little more like I could defend myself had I had a Taser or something. A grown man is going to take down a woman every time, I don't care how many cartoon she-heroes make it seem otherwise. To defend myself, I would have needed a weapon.

So I thought about getting a weapon, after that. Mr. Anth suggested a baseball bat, but I don't think he really understands the woman vs. man dynamic here. He might have a chance with a baseball bat, but I wouldn't. Notice I haven't gotten a weapon since then.

But I... well, I resent the implication that the reason I thought about a weapon was that I was willing to shoot someone for stealing a TV. I wasn't. I'm not. My haunting fear is that if I HAD had a weapon, would I have shot him before understanding why he was there? Honestly, I didn't know why he was there until I pieced it all together later. I still truly don't know, all my evidence is circumstantial. But I don't think he was there to hurt me.

I could have shot him for no reason. And the fear of making that kind of mistake has kept me from allowing myself any kind of self-defense if the bad guy WERE threatening my kids or myself.


But when I read sentences like those above, I get that "strawman" feeling, as if anti-gun folks are trying to make the argument about something else. (This is coming from an anti-gun person, btw.) I can't speak for everyone, of course, and I'm sure some people would shoot rather than being robbed. However, unless you have personally experienced that fear of someone might be there to hurt you, as I did that day, it would be difficult to understand why people might be interested in self-defense, people who actually aren't so shallow as to kill for a TV.

I was really scared that day. The nightmares went on for a long time. And I now live in a much more rough part of the city, and because of my abhorrence for guns and my fears of making fatal mistakes with them, I'm still not able to defend myself. I hope that doesn't turn out to be a bad decision, some day.

[yovargas]

My brother-in-law drives an armored truck, and carries a gun. That makes sense to me. Mr. S goes out to dinner at a nice Mexican place, and we have to arrange the seating around his... well, paranoia. Hence the sarcasm.

If it is indeed that bad than it couldn't be called anything else but paranoia. This is part of why I posted that "the world isn't that bad!" post in that other thread and why I highly appreciate the "Look at all the ways the world is getting better!" that Nin posted there. Stuff like that fights against that needless paranoia. Or at least I hope it does. Modern media makes the world seem far more terrifying than it really is for most people.


On your story...so sorry you had to experience that moment. That's kinda the thing - and why as much as I super do not like guns, I've never been able to take a super anti-gun stance - is you can just never know. People can post all the stats in the world about how much more likely a gun is to hurt you than to help you but, true as that may be, you can just never know. Because somebody somewhere has used their gun to protect their lives or the lives of a loved one and telling that person that that wasn't very statistically likely to happen probably won't make them any less glad they had that gun when they did. It's a gamble one way or the other (isn't everything??) and when it comes to defending your own life, who am I to tell someone else how to make that gamble?


That's for self-defense guns, though. For mass-murder guns - F**K that, get that S**T out of as many hands as possible!

[anthriel]

My brother-in-law drives an armored truck, and carries a gun. That makes sense to me. Mr. S goes out to dinner at a nice Mexican place, and we have to arrange the seating around his... well, paranoia. Hence the sarcasm.

If it is indeed that bad than it couldn't be called anything else but paranoia. This is part of why I posted that "the world isn't that bad!" post in that other thread and why I highly appreciate the "Look at all the ways the world is getting better!" that Nin posted there. Stuff like that fights against that needless paranoia. Or at least I hope it does. Modern media makes the world seem far more terrifying than it really is for most people.

Agreed.

On your story...so sorry you had to experience that moment. That's kinda the thing - and why as much as I super do not like guns, I've never been able to take a super anti-gun stance - is you can just never know.

Agreed.

People can post all the stats in the world about how much more likely a gun is to hurt you than to help you but, true as that may be, you can just never know. Because somebody somewhere has used their gun to protect their lives or the lives of a loved one and telling that person that that wasn't very statistically likely to happen probably won't make them any less glad they had that gun when they did. It's a gamble one way or the other (isn't everything??) and when it comes to defending your own life, who am I to tell someone else how to make that gamble?

Agreed.

That's for self-defense guns, though. For mass-murder guns - F**K that, get that S**T out of as many hands as possible!

AGREED!!



You know, you and I come from fairly different demographics, yovi. That said, it really is amazing how often you speak for me!

[Maria]

I flew at him like a banshee from Hell, screaming at the top of my lungs,

And you probably looked incredibly scary, the way a cat does when it fluffs up big and yowls at a sudden threat.

I've always thought a cast iron skillet would be as much or more use than a baseball bat, but I have no data to back that up.

[River]

It's got more density.

Anth, I wouldn't be underestimating what you could do with a baseball bat. But, anyway, it sounds like you did an adequate job just by going into banshee mode. I'm sorry that happened. But remember...he was the one who ended up running away.

[anthriel]

It's got more density.

Anth, I wouldn't be underestimating what you could do with a baseball bat. But, anyway, it sounds like you did an adequate job just by going into banshee mode. I'm sorry that happened. But remember...he was the one who ended up running away.

I'm so glad he did! I was QUIVERING with fear when he was trying to break in... couldn't believe it... trying to plan my escape (not too many good options for that, btw)... dialed "911" in the phone but didn't hit send for a long pause because I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT. Couldn't believe that *I* was now in danger from a stranger, potentially fatal danger, and just floored that 5 minutes before I had been on the computer (probably HoF, truth be told) and now I was trying to decide the most logical, safe choices in a potentially violent encounter.

I finally sent the call and told the operator someone was trying to break in my house and her first question was "do you know him?" which seemed ridiculous at the time but now just seems sad. I was totally in my head, if that makes any sense, trying to parse out what to DO, my body in a shuddering standstill. I could barely move. FREAKED OUT. You know how fear sweat smells differently from regular sweat? I can remember smelling that. The smell of my own paralyzing fear.

And then... well, then my mommy brain detected a potential danger to my dear sweet dog. Mommy brain must be located somewhere in the brain stem, somewhere devoid of higher reasoning capability... screaming at that man, charging him with arms outspread and murderous intent on my face was not a strategy I had considered a split second before, when I was, you know, actually THINKING.

Getting within his reach was dumb, dumb, dumb. Putting the dog's safety above my own was dumb, dumb, dumb. Ty and I could both be gone, from that one dumb "un"decision. Talk about knee-jerk.

But yes, it worked. The guy was pretty freaked out by me, apparently. The cops were commenting on it, and laughing. The guy asked them if *I* was insane. He honestly wanted to know.

Mommy brain. Yep, that does equal insane, I think. For brief moments, anyway.

I flew at him like a banshee from Hell, screaming at the top of my lungs,

And you probably looked incredibly scary, the way a cat does when it fluffs up big and yowls at a sudden threat.

Exactly.

[Primula Baggins]

Thank God you're so terrifying, Anthy!

As traumatic as that absolutely was, though, if you'd had a gun handy, you might have killed him. I have to imagine that that would be a heavy burden.

(And of course, if you'd hesitated he might have taken it from you and killed you.)

It's all complicated.

Everything but the bit about mass-killing weapons. Those have got to go. (Again.)

[yovargas]

You know, you and I come from fairly different demographics, yovi. That said, it really is amazing how often you speak for me!

Wait.....you mean you're not a gay male pseudo-millenial atheist hispanic???

[anthriel]

You know, you and I come from fairly different demographics, yovi. That said, it really is amazing how often you speak for me!

Wait.....you mean you're not a gay male pseudo-millenial atheist hispanic???

Well, close.

(You forgot "young", too. I'm not young!)

[yovargas]

(That's where the pseudo-millenial came in. )

[anthriel]

Thank God you're so terrifying, Anthy!

As traumatic as that absolutely was, though, if you'd had a gun handy, you might have killed him. I have to imagine that that would be a heavy burden.

(And of course, if you'd hesitated he might have taken it from you and killed you.)

Which is sort of what I wrote above. (Except the hesitation part, which I have considered, and is a really good point!)

Look, I stress about making a mistake HERE just WRITING something which ends up, you know, upsetting people for no good reason (which yes, I have been chided for, but it is what it is). I can't imagine hurting someone by mistake, and killing them?! To protect myself from them doing something they didn't actually intend to do?! I don't need that power. I guess I would rather risk dying undefended (a very small risk, I would say) than hurting someone based on an incorrect assumption.

But my point was I always chafe a little when people write or say (and it reads as rather a condescending voice) that people only want home defense weapons to protect their TVs. If robbers would be courteous enough to announce their intentions when they break into a home, that would be helpful. But at least in my situation, that information was not available. The fact that the homeowner might be in physical, mortal danger from a home invasion is real.

People shouldn't break into my house, dammit, not for any reason, and I resent that I was put into a position to have to make those decisions because HE decided to rob me (if that was the intent). HE is the one who upped that ante to dangerous levels, and any of my possible responses aside, we can't lose sight of that fact. *I* was on the computer, probably reacting to virtual raccoons running amok or passing out questionable virtual cookies. He entered my house without my permission, and brought with him the instant possibility of violence and/or death (his or mine... or Ty's). I feel sorry for him because of his drug addiction, which seemed to be the cause of his decision. Drug addiction is a cruel master. But I still resent what he did.


As yov states above, my reaction in that situation was a gamble. It IS all complicated. But my subsequent contemplation of a self-defense weapon (which I ultimately decided against) wasn't about anth considering a gun to protect her TV. That oft-stated comment makes a very 3D situation into a 2D caricature of a gun-wielding blowhard raining misery and destruction for minor infractions. It doesn't line up at all with my own experiences with the dynamics of home invasion.

Everything but the bit about mass-killing weapons. Those have got to go. (Again.)

Agreed. Sigh.

(That's where the pseudo-millenial came in. )

So that's a temporal designation only, or can it be a mindset? I mean, I play Pokémon Go. Am I not also a pseudo-millennial?

[yovargas]

You are probably younger than me in many ways, asides from that pesky "actual date of birth" thing.

[RoseMorninStar]

Goodness gracious what an awful experience. I'm glad you (and your doggie) were OK.

If you'd had a gun, would you have used it? They say that in such situations a gun is often taken from the 'owner' and used against them, which is horrible.

I don't know how often it would prevent such things, but they now make a motion sensor audio/video doorbell (for about $200-300) that connects to your cell phone. You can see who is at your door and ask them questions. They don't know if you're home or away on vacation.

[anthriel]

Goodness gracious what an awful experience. I'm glad you (and your doggie) were OK.

If you'd had a gun, would you have used it? They say that in such situations a gun is often taken from the 'owner' and used against them, which is horrible.

Probably not to defend myself. (Nor to save the TV ) I am SUCH a wuss, and I was just cowering in fear. I would be the one that got shot with my own gun, for sure.

The thought that really haunts me, I have to admit, is would I have shot that man if he had tried to hurt/kill my dog?

.

.

.

Probably.

Mommy brain protective instinct includes the dog. I would have regretted making that decision, later, since a human is always more important than a dog. But in that situation, Stupid Idiot NOT SUPPOSED TO BE IN MY HOUSE would have been *stopped* had he threatened that dog. If I had had the power to stop it, that is. I can't be trusted with that power!

I don't know how often it would prevent such things, but they now make a motion sensor audio/video doorbell (for about $200-300) that connects to your cell phone. You can see who is at your door and ask them questions. They don't know if you're home or away on vacation.

That's such a great idea!

[Primula Baggins]

I've seen that, and it's tempting. An ad I saw the other night says it alerts you if someone is just standing on the porch; they don't have to ring the doorbell.

I would like it because I work upstairs and would rather not interrupt my day and scurry downstairs for religious missionaries or young people from those "sales programs," but I don't want to miss friends, neighbors, or kids selling stuff to raise money.

[narya]

Point taken, Anthy. There is no way to know the intent of someone breaking into your house, or even someone approaching you on a city street. I was over reacting to the pro gun people who do say they are justified in shooting anyone who steps on their property, regardless of motive, and will even shoot an unarmed burglar fleeing from an encounter.

[RoseMorninStar]

Costco (and many other places) have those doorbells. I've thought about getting one because we live kinda in the country and don't get many people coming to our door. Unless we are in one of the front bedrooms we can't see who is at the door until you are at the door, and I don't always answer if it's someone I don't know especially if I'm home alone.

I can understand the 'mommy protector' thing. I'd do just about anything to protect my daughter. I'd go pretty far to protect my dog too. I'm just thinking that most likely IF I were to have a gun (unlikely) I'd probably have it somewhere not super easy to get to and the ammunition might be somewhere else (for safety) and I don't know that I'd be ready/able to shoot someone at the door because I would guess one wouldn't assume it was someone coming to harm them with the first knock and by the time I'd 'get ready' things might already be out of hand or handled by calling 911.

Narya, there have been several instances lately (thinking especially of people playing 'Pokemon go' )where people have gotten shot at even though they were in a vehicle on the street in front of someone's property, or of someone who knocked on the wrong door. People far too readily turn to violence and too many people are willing to take things into their own (untrained) hands rather than let professionals handle the situation.