The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

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Passdagas the Brown
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The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by Passdagas the Brown »

I’ve often been frustrated by the unnecessary hostility between theoretical and experimental scientists. And beyond that, I’ve been frustrated by the hostility scientists sometimes direct at the science fiction world, especially when scientists themselves become science fiction authors, and make informed speculations about the future (after all, a hypothesis is simply an educated speculation that can be falsified - now or in the future). Why does this frustrate me? Because in my view, the speculation and imagination of today drives the science of tomorrow. And in this context, there should be no room or tolerance for excessive close-mindedness about what is, or is not, relevant to the scientific process.

This subject interests me greatly, and recently began over in the Cottage of Lost Play forum (I felt the subject was too broad for that forum, and so I brought it here).

In a thread regarding the forthcoming biopic about Stephen Hawking (one of my heroes), we were discussing a comment that the actor playing Hawking (Eddie Redmayne) made when he met Hawking for the first and only time. He said something like “We’re both capricorns” (which I interpreted as humor) to which Hawking replied with something like “I am an astronomer, not an astrologer" (which I also interpreted as humor).

This prompted some understandable annoyance at Redmayne for making that comment to such a great mind, which then led to the following exchange (or beginning of an exchange) between myself and Primula Baggins, which speaks to the subject of this thread. I’ve pasted the exchange below as a fire-starter for this conversation, and hope to see a robust exchange of views!

Passdagas the Brown said:
Sounds like a harmless little joke from Redmayne (and Hawking may have well been joking as well).
In any event, the universe may contain more dimensions than we are aware of (if theoretical frameworks like string theory pan out) and even far more than one universe. If the big bang was actually the creation of a hyper-advanced civilization in another universe, who's to say they didn't have a sense of humor as well - programming some absurd properties into the experiment that included an odd correlation between the future orbits and spin of planets, and the characteristics of future life forms on those planets? :)
Primula Baggins replied:
Gahhhh! Not falsifiable, and therefore irrelevant.
Passdagas the Brown replied:
Some astrological claims can actually be falsified. And a few scholars have attempted to do so. And so far, the claims that have been tested have turned out to be generally false. So astrology has already failed some scientific scrutiny.

And of course, my scenario above was not particularly serious. Hence the smiley. But I will say that the non-falsifiability of something does not make it generally irrelevant. It simply makes it not subject to scientific scrutiny at the moment, and therefore only irrelevant to the scientific method for the time being.

But of course, there have been a number of hypotheses and theories throughout history that were once non-falsifiable (due to the limitations of knowledge and technology), but through the further development of knowledge and technology, eventually became falsifiable (such as, say, the existence of atoms). So in that sense, a hypothesis that is non-falsifiable at the moment is not irrelevant to science in general. In fact, such hypotheses can spur a plethora of prerequisite studies and technological developments (just as the science fiction of the past has spurred researchers to discover, test and develop, as will the science fiction of today).

My insane hypothesis, of course, requires a whole host of prerequisite discoveries. First, scientists have not yet been able to peer into the time before the big bang (and human scientists may indeed never be able to do so). But there are legions of physicists, etc. who want to do so, and that desire alone may drive us toward doing so. Second, dimensions beyond the 4th (and the existence of a multi-verse) are still just mathematical possibilities, and not observed realities. But there are experimental physicists who are driven by a desire to observe those realities (many of whom are associated with CERN or Fermilab). Third, the nature of our universe is still an open question, and will be until we reconcile quantum physics and relativity. It may be impossible to determine what, or who, is responsible for the creation of the universe until we fully understand what it is. And lastly, we have of course found no evidence to suggest that there's a statistically-significant correlation between the month and day of a human being's birth, and their psychological profile. So choosing this area of study right now is probably not a promising career move.

But the point is that science fiction, and non-falsifiable hypotheses, are not irrelevant at all (provided that they don't contradict already-established laws of physics). They are the imaginative core that drives scientific inquiry. To dismiss it is to dismiss the fuel that drives the engine of that inquiry. The method of science, both experimental and theoretical, is not all science is. Science is a human endeavor bound up with the imagination, and the method is just our way of testing whether or not we're on the right track. It's a tool, not the whole project.

Frankly, I've found there to be a very frustrating dynamic between experimental and theoretical scientists. The former, in particular, seem to often be unable to lift their heads from the underbrush in order to appreciate the driving force that theory (and even mere speculation) has on the scientific process. While the latter can sometimes be too willing to ignore experimental results for as long as possible, if it seems that those experiments are poking holes in their pet theories. However, I feel that the experimentalists can often be the more closed-minded of the two groups (often, not always, as there are a large number of exceptions on both sides).

In that context, the most I can say to experimentalists (and some theorists) who sniff at anything that cannot yet be tested is that the seemingly wild speculation of the past has, on some occasions, become the accepted reality of the present. Because of that, try to keep your mind open to the many rays of reality that may, or may not, be true. Including the possibility that the big bang was the result of an extra-universal experiment by some bored extra-universal experimental scientists!


Looking forward to your thoughts!

-PtB
Last edited by Passdagas the Brown on Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I don't have any. :) But I'm curious to see what others have to say.
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by Primula Baggins »

First, I apologize for the drive-by post. I'd like to unpack it a little.

I didn't intend to say that astrology (!) was "not falsifiable." I was referring to the idea of discovering the intentions of some super-beings who may or may not have designed our universe (whether they were jokers or not :P ). Advances in technology do make it possible to discover aspects of our universe that were invisible to us before. I would not describe any theory related to possible physical phenomena within our universe as "not falsifiable." It will almost certainly be falsifiable someday, assuming our species survives and continues to advance.

The key is "within our universe." What we discover by empirical means within our own universe, we discover by measuring some kind of physical phenomenon, whether we're looking for gravity waves or detecting photons from the Big Bang. We've made amazing advances in these types of discoveries and I'm sure will continue to do so (with the same caveat as before).

However, I do not see how we will ever be able to measure something that doesn't exist anywhere in our entire universe. "Gateways to another universe" sound nonsensical to me. "Higher dimensions" are a different matter—if those exist as theorized, they are within our universe, an aspect of it, and we will figure out how to detect evidence that they exist. But other universes? I think it's reasonable to believe that they exist, but I don't think it will ever be possible to "drill through" somehow from one to another. And what would we do if we could? There's no reason to believe that the universe we gained access to would have the same physical laws or constants as our own. The anthropic principle comes into play. We exist and observe our universe because its physical laws and constants allowed stable matter to form. It is not a given that this would be the case in all or even most other universes. How do you measure something that follows different physical laws? If it were possible to open a doorway and stick an instrument through, how long would it last? Would it function, or would it quietly evaporate? Do we really want to risk letting the energies of another universe's Big Bang through into our own?

Of course, I don't have mathematical bases for what I've just said, but I've talked to people who have. It would be a lot of fun to be ultimately wrong about this, but to me this question is not even on the spectrum with questions about things we don't yet understand about our own universe. Given time, I believe humans will eventually solve just about everything that currently baffles us within our own universe. Maybe other intelligent races already have. But phenomena occurring outside our universe? My guess, my speculation, is that those will always be unmeasurable, impossible even to perceive—as impossible to study by experiment as the existence or nonexistence of God.

Speculation about it all, though, is never irrelevant. Science fiction is a toy, not a tool, but it's a fun one. I don't read it as a prediction of what may someday happen; I read it as speculation, and although SF writers are expected to hew as closely as they, we, can to what we currently understand about our universe, we also get to break the rules, postulate the impossible here and there, in order to get to a story worth telling. The problem is that scientists don't have the same license.

I also haven't met many scientists who sniff at science fiction. Panels at SF conventions are well stocked with them. Some of them write SF themselves.

Finally, a word about experimentalists versus theorists—science is experiment. Theories mean little until they're tested. The experimentalists with their heads in the underbrush are getting it done. Some may have closed minds. But theorists have closed minds sometimes as well—a generation of cosmologists had to die off before the steady-state theory died, in the teeth of overwhelming evidence.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by River »

Passdagas the Brown wrote:I’ve often been frustrated by the unnecessary hostility between theoretical and experimental scientists. And beyond that, I’ve been frustrated by the hostility scientists sometimes direct at the science fiction world, especially when scientists themselves become science fiction authors, and make informed speculations about the future (after all, a hypothesis is simply an educated speculation that can be falsified - now or in the future). Why does this frustrate me? Because in my view, the speculation and imagination of today drives the science of tomorrow. And in this context, there should be no room or tolerance for excessive close-mindedness about what is, or is not, relevant to the scientific process.
I'm not sure there is much hostility. Or, if there is, that it's uniform across all disciplines, institutions, or scientists. My observation, based on being a biochemist embedded in a physics department, is that the theorists and experimentalists in physics exist in a rather healthy feedback loop in which the theorists point, the experimentalists go and report back, the theorists tweak and re-point, and around and around we go until boom, someone forms a Bose-Einstein condensate in their lab or observes a Higgs boson in a particle accelerator. There is a lot of back and forth along the way and things may get heated because scientists are as emotionally complicated as any other human (the Vulcan Science Academy does not actually exist :P) but, in physics, the experimentalists and theorists depend on each other. It's kind of nice to see that people who are very smart but absolutely useless with their hands have a home in physics. In biochemistry, that is not the case. The systems are so complicated and reductionist approaches so fraught with peril that theorists are typically scoffed at. That's changing as computing power improves and also as the technologies that allow us to observe things improves but we're a long way from that healthy feedback the physicists enjoy.

As for the attitudes expressed towards speculative fiction...well, it depends on the scientist. A lot of us enjoy speculative fiction. Speaking purely for myself, while I have some very specific personal pet peeves, those pet peeves have nothing to do with what's theoretically or empirically shown to be impossible and everything to do with me. Time travel is incredibly popular as a plot device. I have a very low tolerance for it. Same with resurrection and with multiverse stuff. It has to be very carefully conceived and executed to keep me in the story. And, again, this is not because the (known) laws of nature are getting violated. Works of fiction, no matter the genre, are not set in our reality. They're more like bits of our reality in a test tube, confined and controlled by the author who mixed it up. That being said, when an author has done their homework and produced some diamond hard, five minutes from now fiction, errors can get under my skin. They stand out, the same way drip marks on an otherwise perfectly painted, untextured wall stand out. I generally appreciate the effort involved in producing that kind of fiction and don't let the mistakes (if they even are mistakes; in one of Greg Bear's novels some of the science was sound at the time he published but totally dated by the time I read the book) pull me out of the story.

One thing I have noticed is that scientists rarely go public with picking apart a work of fiction unless the work is so carefully done that the mistakes/licenses are few and/or there is a public fuss or panic going on. It is actually high praise when Tyson gets up and says this is where Gravity or Interstellar got it wrong. Of course, you also get people who feel compelled to go on and on at length about what's scientifically wrong with Star Wars. These people are dorks. Or teenagers.

There's more I could say about this and I probably will but I've already generated a TLDR post and I'm going to take a break.
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by Passdagas the Brown »

Prim,

My apologies if this came across as a polemic against you! That was not my intention. And to clarify, the piece of your post I was primarily responding to was the "therefore irrelevant" part. Though I do believe that the existence of other universes may ultimately be a falsifiable question for us (and that the dynamics of other universes may eventually become open to our inquiry), I am conscious of the possibility that this may either never happen, or be so far in the future that it's almost not worth thinking about. The strong possibility that other universes will obey physical laws that are completely different to our own makes the former possibility very likely, but then again, we may find new ways of observing other universes far in the future (using means that may have nothing to do with "travelling" through wormholes - e.g. developing technologies that can simply see - or detect traces of - these other universes, without actually going there).

In any event, let me respond to some of your points:
I was referring to the idea of discovering the intentions of some super-beings who may or may not have designed our universe (whether they were jokers or not :P ).
Got it. Though in that case, it is not 100% clear that this will never be falsifiable. After all, if the theory holds that the 3D universe is really just a hologram of a universe on a 2D plane, it could follow that evidence to suggest that the 2D plane was created by an extra-universal phenomenon (consciously or not) could show itself in our universe, without humans having to travel to another.
But other universes? I think it's reasonable to believe that they exist, but I don't think it will ever be possible to "drill through" somehow from one to another. And what would we do if we could? There's no reason to believe that the universe we gained access to would have the same physical laws or constants as our own. The anthropic principle comes into play. We exist and observe our universe because its physical laws and constants allowed stable matter to form. It is not a given that this would be the case in all or even most other universes. How do you measure something that follows different physical laws? If it were possible to open a doorway and stick an instrument through, how long would it last? Would it function, or would it quietly evaporate? Do we really want to risk letting the energies of another universe's Big Bang through into our own?
I agree that these are the fundamental problems associated with any human aspiration for "discovering" other universes. But it's possible, I think, that these other universes may interact with our own in ways that we do not yet understand (in which case, we may find traces of their existence here). Thus far, the existence of other universes is real only in some mathematical constructions among string theorists, but I'm not sure we can rule out the possibility that we may at some stage detect abnormalities in our universe that might only be explained by interactions with other universes. Perhaps this has something to do with the current irreconcilability between quantum physics and relativity?
But phenomena occurring outside our universe? My guess, my speculation, is that those will always be unmeasurable, impossible even to perceive—as impossible to study by experiment as the existence or nonexistence of God.
That's possible, of course. But while I also believe that humans will never be able to travel to (or exist in) other universes, it's less certain, IMO, that human beings will not be able to find the means of detecting the evidence of other universes, within our own universe (under the assumption that there may be such thing as an "inter-universe ecology"), much as there are interactions between planets in a solar system that can be conceptualized as a "planetary system ecology." And if we do eventually observe phenomena in our own universe that point towards the possibility that the properties of our universe were cooked up in some lab somewhere in an imperceptible universe, then it's sort of fun to think that some bored extra-universal lab assistants could essentially be our Gods. :)
Speculation about it all, though, is never irrelevant. Science fiction is a toy, not a tool, but it's a fun one. I don't read it as a prediction of what may someday happen; I read it as speculation...
I agree. It's speculative fiction. However, I find some of it (the best of it) to be far more than a fun toy. There are reams of anecdotal evidence to suggest that many a scientist was inspired, in their formative years, by questions posed by science fiction. I know I was (though I am now merely a lowly social scientist :)) This "fun stuff" is, IMO, the first part of the "speculation to hypothesis to theory to experiment to physical law" process of the sciences. Speculation and imagination are a core element of that. IMO, if we as humans only had an experimentalist ethic, the Albert Einsteins of history may have been booed off stage before they could even get a chance to finish asking their questions. In short, we need the bizarros who ask crazy questions.
Finally, a word about experimentalists versus theorists—science is experiment. Theories mean little until they're tested. The experimentalists with their heads in the underbrush are getting it done. Some may have closed minds. But theorists have closed minds sometimes as well—a generation of cosmologists had to die off before the steady-state theory died, in the teeth of overwhelming evidence.
I did recognize in the OP that there are closed minds on both sides (on the theoretical side, the resistance to experimental evidence that contradicts theory can be fierce, and sometimes irrational). It is only my own anecdotal experiences that have led me to conclude that there are more closed minds in the experimental fields. However, I disagree with the notion that "science is experiment" (if by that you mean that science is primarily, or exclusively, composed of "experiment"). Experiment is a core element of science, as it is a necessary tool for validating theory, but the broader process of scientific inquiry, from speculation to theory to experiment, is much more than that. By your definition, string theorists are not scientists because they have only been able to validate their theories through abstract mathematical creations. I agree that the theory will need to be tested experimentally in order to eventually be accepted as a strong theory (or if it holds up, accepted as law), but the extraordinary mathematics going into the development of string theory is, IMO, part of the broader process of "science." In short, experiment has to be a core component of all science, and theorists must all strive to prove their theories through hard evidence arrived at via experiment. But to elevate one component of the scientific process above all others has always struck me as odd. But perhaps it is simply a cultural matter, and any "hostility" I perceive is simply what people in different groups do either to validate their life's work, or poke fun at the habits of others?
Last edited by Passdagas the Brown on Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by Passdagas the Brown »

River,
As for the attitudes expressed towards speculative fiction...well, it depends on the scientist. A lot of us enjoy speculative fiction. Speaking purely for myself, while I have some very specific personal pet peeves, those pet peeves have nothing to do with what's theoretically or empirically shown to be impossible and everything to do with me. Time travel is incredibly popular as a plot device. I have a very low tolerance for it.
That's funny, because I have a problem with time travel stories for the very same reason. The kind of time travel depicted in most books and films seems entirely implausible within the realm of physics, and yet the storytellers often go to great pains to create faux-explanations for it (unlike in fantasy literature, where an author normally declares the existence of a world, and that's that). For some reason, time travel in stories seem like cheating to me, while other forms of space-movie nonsense doesn't.
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by Primula Baggins »

First, PtB, I didn't think what you posted was a polemic! My short post had a huge hole in it that you quite properly pointed out. I could hardly be offended when I was in the wrong.
Passdagas the Brown wrote:In any event, let me respond to some of your points:
Prim wrote:But other universes? I think it's reasonable to believe that they exist, but I don't think it will ever be possible to "drill through" somehow from one to another. And what would we do if we could? There's no reason to believe that the universe we gained access to would have the same physical laws or constants as our own. [. . .]
I agree that these are the fundamental problems associated with any human aspiration for "discovering" other universes. But it's possible, I think, that these other universes may interact with our own in ways that we do not yet understand (in which case, we may find traces of their existence here). Thus far, the existence of other universes is real only in some mathematical constructions among string theorists, but I'm not sure we can rule out the possibility that we may at some stage detect abnormalities in our universe that might only be explained by interactions with other universes.
That's an intriguing notion, though it would necessitate some kind of interpenetration of universes in order for energy or information to be transferred from one to the other—even in the form of mysterious scorch marks. I can't imagine it working that way (which doesn't rule it out, obviously). I think of a universe as a tremendous self-contained bubble of spacetime loaded with energy in many different forms including matter, and it just feels intuitive to me that any intrusion from another universe, if it were possible, might disrupt that bubble fatally.
[. . .] But while I also believe that humans will never be able to travel to (or exist in) other universes, it's less certain, IMO, that human beings will not be able to find the means of detecting the evidence of other universes, within our own universe (under the assumption that there may be such thing as an "inter-universe ecology," much as there are interactions between planets in a solar system that can be conceptualized as a "planetary system ecology." And if we do eventually observe phenomena in our own universe that point towards the possibility that the properties of our universe were cooked up in some lab somewhere in an imperceptible universe, then it's sort of fun to think that some bored extra-universal lab assistants could essentially be our Gods. :)
Speculation about it all, though, is never irrelevant. Science fiction is a toy, not a tool, but it's a fun one. I don't read it as a prediction of what may someday happen; I read it as speculation...
I agree. It's speculative fiction. However, I find some of it (the best of it) to be far more than a fun tool. There are reams of anecdotal evidence to suggest that many a scientist was inspired, in their formative years, by questions posed by science fiction. I know I was (though I am now merely a lowly social scientist :)) This "fun stuff" is, IMO, the first part of the "speculation to hypothesis to theory to experiment to physical law" process of the sciences. Speculation and imagination are a core element of that. IMO, if we as humans only had an experimentalist ethic, the Albert Einsteins of history may have been booed off stage before they could even get a chance to finish asking their questions. In short, we need the bizarros who ask crazy questions.
I don't deny that SF and SFnal notions have nurtured and encouraged people to pursue scientific careers. But I'd argue that it's a cultural influence, more than a supply of "crazy ideas" that lead to actual hypotheses. It's the idea that people can do this, that it has value, and that amazing discoveries can be made that encourages some young SF readers to go on and study science. It definitely encouraged me.

I'd also suggest that the odd types like you and me who enjoy reading SF are the kind of people who like to be presented with information that they have to sort into patterns and figure out for themselves—as is done in the best SF writing. People who do this for fun are more likely to prosper as researchers (in whatever field!) than people who hate being puzzled even briefly and prefer the familiar and the thoroughly explained..
[. . .] I disagree with the notion that "science is experiment" (if by that you mean that science is primarily, or exclusively, composed of "experiment"). Experiment is a core element of science, as it is a necessary tool for validating theory, but the broader process of scientific inquiry, from speculation to theory to experiment, is much more than that. By your definition, string theorists are not scientists because they have only been able to validate their theories through abstract mathematical creations. I agree that the theory will need to be tested experimentally in order to eventually be accepted as a strong theory (or if it holds up, accepted as law), but the extraordinary mathematics going into the development of string theory is, IMO, part of the broader process of "science." In short, experiment has to be a core component of all science, and theorists must all strive to prove their theories through hard evidence arrived at via experiment. But to elevate one component of the scientific process above all others has always struck me as odd. But perhaps it is simply a cultural matter, and any "hostility" I perceive is simply what people in different groups do either to validate their life's work, or poke fun at the habits of others?
All of this is science, absolutely, and to the extent that I can understand it, I find it fascinating. But I do believe that the core of the "broader process" is experiment. Which requires theory to begin with. Then hypotheses have to be formed, and experiments designed to test them, and results analyzed and validated. In terms of what people do when they are "doing science," gathering and processing data is a huge chunk of it. That's what produces practical scientific results that change people's lives, as well as stunningly impractical but fundamentally vital results such as nailing the Higgs boson. I did research lab work for a number of years, and I married a graduate student, then Ph.D. who worked in labs for more years still. So I lived the experimental phase, which accounts for my focus on it. That doesn't mean I discount the rest of it; just that most of the people doing science are doing experiments. Over and over and over. Then crunching numbers and doing them again. And sometimes the results are startling—this happened to me on a set of experiments I was in charge of and led (eventually) to my one publication. It's unglamorous, tedious, and frequently dirty work, but it's the only thing that can make a theory strong enough to be useful. In that sense I do elevate it.

(And I agree with both you and River about time travel stories, much as I love Doctor Who. :P )
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Passdagas the Brown wrote:River,
As for the attitudes expressed towards speculative fiction...well, it depends on the scientist. A lot of us enjoy speculative fiction. Speaking purely for myself, while I have some very specific personal pet peeves, those pet peeves have nothing to do with what's theoretically or empirically shown to be impossible and everything to do with me. Time travel is incredibly popular as a plot device. I have a very low tolerance for it.
That's funny, because I have a problem with time travel stories for the very same reason. The kind of time travel depicted in most books and films seems entirely implausible within the realm of physics, and yet the storytellers often go to great pains to create faux-explanations for it (unlike in fantasy literature, where an author normally declares the existence of a world, and that's that). For some reason, time travel in stories seem like cheating to me, while other forms of space-movie nonsense doesn't.
Do you feel that way about Tolkien's two unfinished time-travel stories, The Lost Road, and The Notion Club Papers, or do you feel (as I do) that he manages to avoid that problem?

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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by yovargas »

No grand thoughts from me but I did wanna chime in to say:

_ I also find time travel stories annoying almost always (my brief attempts at Doctor Who included :p).

- y'alls should really get to Interstellar while it's in theaters. I suspect Prim in particular will enjoy it even though I didn't. Even if you don't though, there's lots in there to talk about!
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by River »

S and I had a plan to see Interstellar last week following Neil deGrasse Tyson's public nerdgasm. But then there was a childcare frak-up and we had to scrap that plan. We will make another attempt soon.

I must say I'm now feeling much less alone about the whole time travel thing. PtB, your post actually crystallized my thinking on my literary pet peeves. It's not so much the devices themselves as the blatant and clumsily executed deus ex machina purposes that they are often put to. The extra-strength pseudoscience sauce sci-fi authors put on it, or the magic or mystic juice that fantasy authors use adds insult to the injury but isn't the actual cause of the pain. Sort of like lemon juice on a cut. :bang:
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by Passdagas the Brown »

V-man,

I love both stories. Tolkien avoids the problem entirely (possibly because he didn't bother with the "extra-strength pseudoscience sauce," a term that River has just coined, and that I am now stealing, under the assumption that she has not had the time to copyright it yet). The worst kind of time travel stories have scene after scene of "now we must do X, using this trusty extra-strength pseudo-science sauce, otherwise Y will happen in the future, and we can't let that happen!" And most time travel stories that are executed poorly rob a narrative of any real tension, as one can assume that someone will be able to travel further back in time, and prevent all the bad stuff that's already happened! X-Men: Days of Future Past was full of this, as was that Edge of Tomorrow film with Tom Cruise and Emily Blunt (though the latter benefited from clearly being a morality tale ala Groundhog Day, even though it had such a lame time-travel explanation which involved being bled on by a time-distorting alien). The best kinds of time travel stories are those that don't take themselves seriously, such as Back to the Future (and Doctor Who).

In general, I simply find it to be too easy a narrative device, and often very clumsily (and annoyingly) executed.

Primula,
That's an intriguing notion, though it would necessitate some kind of interpenetration of universes in order for energy or information to be transferred from one to the other—even in the form of mysterious scorch marks. I can't imagine it working that way (which doesn't rule it out, obviously). I think of a universe as a tremendous self-contained bubble of spacetime loaded with energy in many different forms including matter, and it just feels intuitive to me that any intrusion from another universe, if it were possible, might disrupt that bubble fatally.
For whatever reasons, largely not scientific, I have a sense of the universe as more sponge-like. Probably says something more about me, than about anything relating to reality! Though the puzzling weakness of gravity makes me think that the ever-elusive "gravitons" are either leaking into another dimension of this universe, or perhaps leaking into another universe...
I'd also suggest that the odd types like you and me who enjoy reading SF are the kind of people who like to be presented with information that they have to sort into patterns and figure out for themselves—as is done in the best SF writing. People who do this for fun are more likely to prosper as researchers (in whatever field!) than people who hate being puzzled even briefly and prefer the familiar and the thoroughly explained..
That's me! How did you know? :) Though from time to time, I can be seduced by the "elegant" explanations, which might be why I am drawn to string theory (and am sometimes overly protective of it...)
In terms of what people do when they are "doing science," gathering and processing data is a huge chunk of it.
I agree that "doing science" largely involves experiment - over and over and over again. But there is a lot of "doing science" which is composed of theory-building, and has little to do with the experimental process. Theoretical physicists of many stripes have spent their entire careers never conducting any experiments, and simply building mathematical constructs. But again, for those constructs to survive the scientific method, they must not crumble in the face of experimentation. The problem, in the case of string theory, is that our current technology has not yet been able to observe key elements of the theory - including the vibrating "strings" at the center of everything, as these theoretical strings are far too small for our current machines. CERN and perhaps Fermilab may, however, eventually find evidence to support elements of string theory. If, for example, they detect gravitons, and those gravitons disappear mysteriously, it could give credence to a well-respected hypothesis in the field that gravity "leaks" into other dimensions, thus explaining its weakness compared to the other forces.

Point being, there's a lot of theory-building in the pioneering areas of theoretical physics that do not yet involve experimentation. And I've heard quite a few critics suggest that it is therefore "not science at all." I think that's a misguided and narrow concept of what science is.
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by Passdagas the Brown »

Prim,

I also wanted to add that it may not be necessary for there to be interactions between "porous" universes in order for human scientists to detect evidence that our own universe is somehow the product of something that occurred outside it in another universe (such as two other hermetically-sealed universes bumping into each other, leading to an explosion of energy that created our universe [the big bang] - as a strange sort of "universe birthing event"). This possibility is actually expounded upon in different versions of string theory, suggesting the possibility that the events preceding the big bang might eventually be detectable by humans.

There are also other theoretical physicists who posit that the universe at the subatomic and cosmic scale behave in ways that suggest the possibility that the universe was manufactured by an intelligent entity in another universe. To me, this line of thinking is not even close to being considered a "theory," and is highly speculative - but of course, an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - so it's worth keeping our minds open to the possibility (without, of course, even coming close to committing to it).

Lastly, how could anyone ever get bored with life when there's always going to be stuff like this to think about? :)
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by Primula Baggins »

Absolutely! :)

Sir Arthur Eddington had the right of it: The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it's stranger than we can imagine.

And (as dear Sir Arthur did not add), how cool is that? :sunny:
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by Alatar »

Hmm. There are good Time Travel stories is realistic settings. The problem is not the device per se, but how its used. Any plot device can be clunky if used badly.
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by Passdagas the Brown »

Al,

Agreed. And with time travel, I prefer it when the device is either used humorously (as in Back to the Future or Dr. Who) or matter-of-factly (time travel exists, and let's not make a fuss of it).
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by Inanna »

Alatar wrote:Hmm. There are good Time Travel stories is realistic settings. The problem is not the device per se, but how its used. Any plot device can be clunky if used badly.
I agree. I quite like Outlander - I haven't delved on this genre enough to hypothesize on how Outlander treats it (i.e., which category does it fall into based on the discussion here), but I was not annoyed by it at all.

Regarding theory and empirical science - as a social scientist, I have little opinion on it. We tend to largely be driven by data - with theory backing us up.

Although, I do love the notion that other universes could leave a shadow here...
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by Passdagas the Brown »

Inanna,

Interesting point. As a social scientist, but in the area of international relations and security studies, I've observed that theory plays an outsized role in our community (with the so-called 'realists' still sitting at the top of the theorist heap). Data-driven studies are certainly critical for validating or invalidating those theories, but the theory people dominate the field (which is sometimes very suffocating for new perspectives, and at other times helpful for cutting through the noise of big data).

Lately, though (as might be evident based on my comments in this thread), I have started to wish I had stuck to my original path in physics... Though as soon as I say something like that, the other part of my brain pushes me toward my self-imposed "duty" to contribute something positive to society about how to improve governance in the world...

My life's been a tug of war (or balance) between pursuing interests that are fulfilling to myself (physics, creative writing), and interests that are fulfilling to my sense of obligation to society (my research and policy work on international affairs). Perhaps it's because I'm a Libra. :)
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Re: The Role of Speculation and Imagination in Science

Post by axordil »

I think trying to explain ANY plot device is fraught with peril, since all it tends to do is draw attention to the fact that it is, in fact, a piece of stage machinery. There's a reason they don't put a spotlight on the chandelier in Phantom of the Opera until it's moving.

The exception is when somehow the details of the device are relevant to the plot. To use Back to the Future as an example, it matters that the DeLorean uses plutonium fuel because it sets up Doc's "death" at the hand of the Libyans, and thus Marty's decision--crucial for his character arc--to follow his own moral sense and ignore Doc's command to not tell his earlier self anything.

This matters to the larger discussion in that some speculative elements are more vital than others to their respective stories. In some hard SF, they can be the whole point of the story (Look, a giant ring around a sun! Isn't it cool?), while in space opera they're almost wholly plot devices (making the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs). Most SF falls out somewhere in between.
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