Zacharias Moussaoui penalty

[Erunáme]

It's just been announced he's gotten life in prison without release.

This is the right decision to me. I'm glad the jury didn't give him the death penalty.

[The Watcher]

It's the right decision for me as well, Eru.

Firstly, because I am against the death penalty on principle.

Secondly, because in this case, no matter what your beliefs about the validity of the death penalty are, killing him would have created a martyr for his cause, and it is exactly what he wanted.

Thirdly, and this is only getting nit picky about the law, what he intended to do and what he knew is not the same thing legally as attempting to do it, so I also believe asking for the death penalty was extreme.

edit for typos - what I get for a drive by post.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I too believe that it was the right decision, and not just because I generally oppose the death penalty. It is utterly clear that he was not really involved in the 9/11 attacks at all, whatever his fantasies. To execute him for those attacks would be wrong (IMO).

[nerdanel]

I generally support the death penalty. I didn't support it in this case. I'm pleased that my prediction that emotion would trump reason and Moussaoui would get the death penalty proved to be utterly wrong. As I've said here before, I'm really skeptical about jury decisionmaking. I'm also skeptical about Americans' (and, to be honest, specifically Virginians') ability to deal with 9/11 victim impact evidence. Obviously, too skeptical. With apologies to those who've already seen it, I'm going to c/p some hasty thoughts I jotted down on this subject a couple weeks ago.

- I am no fan of or apologist for Zacarias Moussaoui.
- My impression - based on his defiant actions and courtroom antics - is that he is quite comfortable with receiving the death penalty. I'm quite comfortable with him receiving it, I guess. Honestly, I don't think it's a big deal one way or the other (death vs. LWOP)

What I am concerned by, though, is the government's scapegoating - as I perceive it. In this second half of the proceedings, the government is treating us to a parade of September 11 victims and their families, subjecting us to a veritable (re)recitation of all the horrific individual journeys that victims began that day. We all know it, including the jurors; we were alive the first time around.

Obviously, however, Mr. Moussaoui was not in any of those planes. I maintain that it is utterly unclear whether he knew enough that he could have averted the events of September 11 by notifying authorities of what he knew. Was he planning another terrorist attack? Quite possibly. Should he spend the rest of his life in prison? Almost certainly.

But when the government - with entirely unsatisfactory evidence that Moussaoui could have thwarted the attacks - parades a litany of tearjerker witnesses in front of the jury to testify how their lives were impacted by 9/11, I'm left feeling that the government simply wants to kill someone and call it 9/11 justice. And I keep thinking of two animals.

Kangaroo. As in court. I do not mean to impugn the district court's integrity in the slightest in making this charge; I think she has done the best she can with an incredibly difficult case, and incredibly undesirable defendant. However, I mean to call it a "kangaroo court" in the sense of "elaborately scripted event intended to appear fair while having the outcome predetermined from the start" - which would be true no matter which judge was assigned to preside. I'm accusing the executive branch here, not the judiciary. I have no doubt that the judge is sincerely trying to hold a fair trial, but I don't know that there was ever any other outcome for this case than Moussaoui being sentenced to death, because emotion is destined to rule over reason. This country remains incapable of rational thought when confronted with 9/11 victim impact evidence. And I think the government hopes now - and has hoped for some time - that the emotion they can cause people to feel re: Moussaoui will mitigate federal failures in other areas concerning terrorism, the "war on terror", "weapons of mass destruction", and 9/11.

Goat. As in scape. That would be Mr. Moussaoui. He doesn't seem to mind filling that role. That's fine. What's more troubling is that the rest of this country doesn't seem to mind him filling it either.

[Pearly Di]

Absolutely brilliant post, Nel. *claps*

I didn't realise that you supported the death penalty. Not that that's a problem for me. I mean, while I don't support it myself - however tempted I might be in some cases - I do understand a little better now why people can support it, whereas beforehand I just used to go 'buh?'

This was the right decision.

[Whistler]

Let this vile nobody sit in a tiny box for decades until most people don't even remember his name, much less whatever he planned to do.

No dreams, no speeches, no glory, no martyrdom, no spotlight, no nothing.

No interviews, no media biographies. No letters from demented well-wishers, would-be jihadists or infatuated women.

Fifty or sixty years of being unseen and unheard, followed by a lonely death that is mentioned on page D7 of the newspaper, under the ad for ladies' shoes.

[Primula Baggins]

Whistler said it.

[The Watcher]

Whistler said it.

Oh, I would not be adverse to giving him 24 hour a day viewing access to the EWTN cable network on a small tv hung just outside of his 5 x 6 cell.......

[Whistler]

I read somewhere that some jails in England are being remodeled so as to make certain that the toilets do not point toward Mecca.

I am frankly expecting foolishness of this nature as his punishment is exacted. He will not skip his chance to remain in the news, and we will not hesitate to demonstrate how civilized we are by catering to him.

It was this expectation that almost made me wish, at first, that they would simply exterminate the bug and be done with it.

We'll see.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

We will see. But actually, I think your initial statement is likely to come true. The public has a very short attention span. This is one of the few times that I think that could be a good thing.

[The Watcher]

I read somewhere that some jails in England are being remodeled so as to make certain that the toilets do not point toward Mecca.

I am frankly expecting foolishness of this nature as his punishment is exacted. He will not skip his chance to remain in the news, and we will not hesitate to demonstrate how civilized we are by catering to him.

It was this expectation that made me wish, at first, that they would simply exterminate this bug and be done with it.

We'll see.

Give him a cell with no windows. How will he know which way east even is? Better yet, give him a bucket. Then he can position it whatever way he wishes to.

Someone here with more knowledge than I do needs to tell me which federal maximum security facility he most likely will end up being in. In any case, I doubt he will have an easy time of it, from what I understand, he will probably need to be in solitary only to prevent him getting killed by the other inmates.

Remember what happened to Jeffery Dahmer here in my state?

[Erunáme]

Let this vile nobody sit in a tiny box for decades until most people don't even remember his name, much less whatever he planned to do.

No dreams, no speeches, no glory, no martyrdom, no spotlight, no nothing.

No interviews, no media biographies. No letters from demented well-wishers, would-be jihadists or infatuated women.

Fifty or sixty years of being unseen and unheard, followed by a lonely death that is mentioned on page D7 of the newspaper, under the ad for ladies' shoes.

I agree.

Supposedly on the way out of the courtroom he lauged as said "You lost, America". Umm, how exactly did America lose? I'd say he lost...no going to heaven to the virgins and what not for a while. He gets to sit in a cell for a long time.

Though prisons are a bit of a joke nowdays. A TV and refrigerator in cells? Gimme a break.

[Primula Baggins]

Not, probably, in his cell.

[samaranth]

I recall commenting on this at the time, nerdanel, and, in passing, indicating that I disagree with the death penalty under any circumstances. At the time you wrote that entry I took the opportunity to read some of the (more in-depth than we were getting) US coverage of the Moussaoui trial, and was struck by the way victim impact statements were relied on there. Victim impact statements are a relatively recent initiative here and used in a somewhat limited range of circumstances. In support of what you were saying, the scope of some of these statements (horrifying and so sad, as they were) and their relationship to the actual facts of Moussaoui’s case seemed to quite a way beyond illustrating the direct impact a crime has had on victims of the September 11 attacks.

I recall also that there was some debate about Moussaoui’s mental stability – whether or not he understood the significance of the proceedings taking place about him or whether he was actually delusional. I presume this was taken into consideration here, because on those grounds alone the death penalty should have been ruled out.

(I was going to say more about why I oppose the death penalty, but the discussion seems to have moved on from there.)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Sam, I for one would be interested in hearing those views. Perhaps it would be worth a separate thread?

[TheEllipticalDisillusion]

Part of me would rather have seen this scum fry or hang. I haven't read anything else on this decision, so I'll comment no further.

[eborr]

strikes me that the jury did a good job in this case, the easy call would have been the death sentance.

I cannot comment as to whether life imprisonment was the correct sentance, as my knowledge of the trial is purely based on headlines, which in the UK tend to be lurid.

If the man was a genuine conspiritor then it's rights that they should lock him away and let him be forgotten, if on the other hand he was just an idiot in the wrong place at the wrong time, then a life sentance is a big price to pay for stupidity.

[Faramond]

Moussaoui wants a new trial. Maybe he wants another shot at the death penalty.

I will be very disappointed if he is allowed another go at being in the news.

[vison]

I have to admit that I don't see what reason there was to have "victim impact" statements at all in this case.

Still, I agree with the verdict. I'm opposed to the death penalty anyway, and in this case it would have been a mistake for many reasons.

[TheEllipticalDisillusion]

I was reading up on the prison he will be able to call home. He'll be spending 23 hours a day in a 7 X 12 cell with only a small window. He gets 1 hour a day for exercise in a concrete yard with only minimal work out equipment. So, much for the glory of his allah.

I also saw that he will be spending the rest of his life with some interesting company. Two of the three involved in the '93 WTC plot, the Unibomber and the man responsible for Oklahoma City. I was surprised when I saw these names because I thought: wow, I haven't heard about people in a long time. And that's the way it should be.