"Privilege"

[yovargas]

Stories of a cop mistreating a black person are proof of broad institutional racism.
Stories of a cop mistreating a white person are proof of some cops being bad cops.

Or so the logic seems be going in the minds of many, many people. I find it highly problematic.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

HERE is an account from someone who lives in the neighborhood.

That is one version (from an extreme right-wing site). I have seen numerous descriptions of what happened that strongly contradict that narrative, by both white and black residents. Of course, the truth is likely to be somewhere in the middle. But what is not in dispute is that only African-American teenagers were targeted, despite the fact that there were both white and black teenagers present.

[Lalaith]

Jewel, it does indeed seem like that the one officer was out of control, and it's appropriate that he resigned, imo. (That is without knowing all of the facts, of course, but the video was pretty condemning.) Retraining might have helped him, but it was probably a better idea for him to leave.

I just read (and watched) this morning that a CNN reporter called the actions of the guy (a domestic terrorist, imo, or, at the very least, an attempted murderer) who attacked the Dallas PD headquarters "courageous and brave."



Would she have felt that way if he'd attacked CNN or another news station (as we've seen in recent months in other countries)?

ETA: As I'm reading even more on this story, I'm even more perplexed and disgusted by her comments. This man wasn't on some crusade. (And would that praise be heaped on a right wing terrorist attacking the government? Of course not! And it shouldn't, nor should it be said about anyone using violence.) This man blamed police for a custody issue. He was white.

<smh>

She should, at the very least, issue an apology.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

She should, at the very least, be fired.

[yovargas]

Yikes, that's pretty unfortunate....I had to look that one up though and in context, I don't think it's fair to say that she intended to praise the guy's actions. The full statement was "courageous and brave, if not crazy". I think if she were talking casually, what she wanted to say was something like "man, that nut really has some balls to try and do that". She was kinda mocking him while at the same that he's clearly fearless. Courageous and brave taken literally aren't necessarily compliments. Taken literally, anyone who doesn't care about being killed anymore is courageous and brave. It was a poor choice of words but IMO it's clear from the video that no praise was intended.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Words matter, and those are unambiguous words. In the current climate in particular, all that does is feed mistrust and tension between police and the community, when we should be doing everything possible to ease those tensions. And it dishonors the thousands of officers who routinely risk their lives. I watched the clip as well, and I much less forgiving; I think it is unacceptable.

[yovargas]

They are unambiguous words in that they mean "without fear". Whether they need to mean more than that is certainly ambiguous and largely depends on context. In this context, I'd say it's quite the stretch to say that she intended to praise their horrible actions considering she immediately follows those words with "crazy" (not to mention her mocking tone of voice). It was a poor choice of words and nothing more.

[Lalaith]

I do have to disagree with you, yovi. Those words really do have a positive connotation. If she meant it as you are saying, then I can think of appropriate words: brazen, foolhardy, audacious, etc. Courageous and brave are positive words.

I maintain that she should at least apologize, if not be reprimanded in some more serious way. It will just remain to be seen if anything happens.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

She reportedly did apologize, and claimed that she "misspoke". I don't really buy it, but I'm sure that will be the end of it.

[yovargas]

You don't buy it in that you actually believe she did not intend to portray to killing of police officers in a positive light? You think that she meant to convey an act she called "crazy" as a good thing?

Yes, "brave" has a positive connotation. It is only ever applied to heroes. But its literal definition equally applies to "villains", and in a spur-of-the-moment, fast-talking, unscripted, live discussion, she chose a poor synonym for "without fear". I'd say it's going much too far to crucify someone for making an occasional poor word choice in such a settings even when the word choice is accurate in a literal sense and its intention simple to deduce. A simple "Oops, I didn't mean it that way" should be more than enough and it seems like that's what we got.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I could perhaps accept what you are saying if she only said "brave". But not "brave and courageous".

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[River]

Yes, I've occasionally heard "brave" used as an alternative to "crazy and stupid" but on never in combination with "courageous" unless it was meant as a positive.

[Lalaith]

Agreed. And I'm not wanting to see her crucified. If she's apologized, well, then, there you go. I doubt CNN will fire her or anything. I am a little skeptical that she misspoke or chose her words poorly, but...whatever. To me, saying "That was courageous and brave, if stupid," means that you somewhat admire what a person did in the sense that you thought it was a positive thing to do but doomed to end poorly.

[River]

Stories of a cop mistreating a black person are proof of broad institutional racism.
Stories of a cop mistreating a white person are proof of some cops being bad cops.

Or so the logic seems be going in the minds of many, many people. I find it highly problematic.

I think there's a blend of both that happens. Police misbehavior that happens when the racial component is removed shouldn't get shrugged off, but I think that for whatever reason we're more ready to talk about racial profiling/institutional racism than general police brutality or other forms of abuse. Which is frustrating and ultimately confusing because it's often the brutality or other forms of abuse that puts racism in the headlines. A police department can have an issue with institutional racism without having issues with brutality or other abuse. A police department can have an issue with brutality or other abuse without having issues with institutional racism. Police departments that are really effed up, like Ferguson, have issues on both fronts. Training has something to do with it, as does how a department is led and/or handles bad apples.

[axordil]

Training has something to do with it, as does how a department is led and/or handles bad apples.

Or good apples:

http://www.lakenewsonline.com/article/2 ... /150619752

[yovargas]

(responding here as I don't want to derail the shooting thread)

Nice to know you can murder nine black people and get the loan of a bullet-proof vest when you're arrested. Good thing the guy wasn't, you know, selling single cigarettes or something.

Must we go there every time, every where? Would you like me to repost the video of the unarmed white man getting beat to death by cops?

Must I read the names of every black person lynched over the last hundred years? This isn't a contest.

If it's not a contest, don't compare random, wildly unrelated events to see who "wins".

Somewhere, some person who thinks racism is no longer a real thing is comparing a video of a black person being arrested calmly and politely to one of a white person being horribly beaten. It's just as illogic, absurd, and frankly toxic to the idea that we want to have an actual discussion on this topic as your kind of comparison.

[axordil]

Being able to think they're unrelated is as shining an example of privilege as I can imagine, and thus, my participation in this discussion is complete.

[yovargas]

Heh. I've seen this over and over again (including here). Anyone who doesn't automatically sign up to the "everything is racist" dogma is not worth talking to or engaging with. That I keep seeing that behavior is also a shining an example of something unpleasant.

And yes, one black teen girl somewhere in the US getting treated too roughly by cops has nothing to do with one mass murdered somewhere in the US getting treated decently by cops. Specially when I could find examples of the exact opposite happening with little trouble.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm done too. If you want to know what I think, watch Jon Stewart's monologue from last nights Daily Show; he says it better than I ever could.

[Beutlin]

In my opinion, the "bullet-proof vest argument" is a pretty polemic (and superficial) one to make. Just a quick Google image search for "bullet-proof vest arrested" reveals that some Afro-American suspects have been equipped with a bullet-proof vest too after their arrest. In 2011, this woman, who was later sentenced to 80 years for her felony murder conviction, got a bullet-proof vest. At the time she was accused of causing the death of four children between the ages of 16 months and 3 years. My point here is not to say that this case and the South Carolina church shooting have anything in common. But a bullet-proof vest on the (likely) murderer of several people is not an indicator of racism.

Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -vest.html

Edit: I decided not to directly link the picture.