"Privilege"

[Voronwë the Faithful]

They just aren't thinking things through to, say, a point after graduation when there will be no institution from which they can demand or receive perfect safety and ease of mind at all times.

I couldn't disagree with this more. If they don't learn at a young age that they have the ability to stand up against not only the everyday racism that they face but also the utter lack of empathy to the realities of their existence that exists everywhere (and I mean everywhere), than they never will stand up and make a difference, and nothing will ever change. Do I agree with all of the rhetoric that some people use? Of course not. But I sympathize with the frustration that leads them to that place. However, when I see what has happened in Missouri when another group of university students have stood up against apathy for their very really concerns, resulting today in the resignation of the university president, I have a glimmer of hope, despite how prevalent I see that lack of empathy here, there and everywhere.

[Primula Baggins]

Those are not the people I was talking about. Not remotely. As I tried to clarify in my next post.

[yovargas]

I have a glimmer of hope, despite how prevalent I see that lack of empathy here, there and everywhere.

Empathy is good but I just can't simply accept the idea that "I am upset by this" should automatically trump any and all other points of view.

[Primula Baggins]

I think there are some things people have to have the right to be upset about, and for me it comes down to the reason. Someone who wants a work of literature banned from a college class because it contains scenes of violence is resisting education and trying to compromise everyone else's. People who want a fraternity to stop carrying out blatantly racist rituals are standing up to a genuine evil. It's an evil that feeds on the ignorance of people who argue that the ritual is "just a tradition, the boys don't really mean anything by it." It's the roots under the ground that keep growing even when the visible stem has been cut down or cut back.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I have a glimmer of hope, despite how prevalent I see that lack of empathy here, there and everywhere.

Empathy is good but I just can't simply accept the idea that "I am upset by this" should automatically trump any and all other points of view.

While that is true, the opposite is equally true.

[Frelga]

I have a glimmer of hope, despite how prevalent I see that lack of empathy here, there and everywhere.

Empathy is good but I just can't simply accept the idea that "I am upset by this" should automatically trump any and all other points of view.

Has anyone tried asking why these guys are so upset? Or is the discussion strictly about whether they have a right to?

[Primula Baggins]

From what I've seen in the discussion pretty much everywhere, that's a favorite strategy for defending the status quo: Why are you so upset? It's uncivil to be upset! You calm down and come back later, and maybe we'll talk about it.

[Frelga]

On a tangent, there was a great scene in Agent Carter when she learns that another character deceived and manipulated her in a matter of personal and professional importance. When he tries to make excuses, she tells him, "You don't get to use my reaction to your lies as a reason for your lies." I think she also punches him. (Seriously, watch that show, I haven't seen TV that good since Firefly)

The parable is not directly applicable, of course, but it's not irrelevant either.

I'll be back...

[yovargas]

Has anyone tried asking why these guys are so upset? Or is the discussion strictly about whether they have a right to?

Well, in the case of the Halloween costume thing, they've been saying why pretty loudly so asking seems a bit redundant.

And, again, in that case, nobody said they didn't have a right to be upset, it's about what are appropriate reactions to being upset are (eg. screaming in a faculty member's face that "You should not sleep at night! You are disgusting!" because they calmly disagreed with your position is probably inappropriate) and whether it is a university's job to protect students from ideas that might upset them (IMO, no).

Also, from that article:

Another Silliman resident declared in a campus publication, “I have had to watch my friends defend their right to this institution. This email and the subsequent reaction to it have interrupted their lives. I have friends who are not going to class, who are not doing their homework, who are losing sleep, who are skipping meals, and who are having breakdowns.”

If a calmly worded email can fling students into emotional breakdowns, the exact nature of why they're upset seems far less significant to me than these student's apparent total inability to deal with any adversity. I'd say it's doing that student a great disservice to have zero expectations for them to have some strength and resilience in the face of even minor hardships. Being upset is one thing; being incapacitated is another. That student needs serious mental help to learn some kind of coping skills. They need that far more than they need a campus with inoffensive Halloween costumes.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

If you really think that the issue is just about Halloween costumes, then there isn't really any point in even having this discussion. As I said before, I don't agree with how a few of the students are expressing their frustration, but I understand where the frustration is coming from. NPR had a fairly thoughtful segment yesterday including an interview with a Yale student that discusses some of the broader issues.

http://www.npr.org/2015/11/09/455367734 ... te-at-yale

[yovargas]

If you really think that the issue is just about Halloween costumes, then there isn't really any point in even having this discussion.

A somewhat ironic reaction considering the topic.

Your consistent inability or unwillingness to engage with people who don't see things exactly the way you do is disappointing, yet again, though no longer surprising.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I didn't say I was unwilling to discuss it, just that it is a waste of time unless people are willing to look beyond the surface issues.

[yovargas]

I am looking beyond the surface issues. But when I look, I see some different things than you do, and so you (yet again) label me as "unwilling" to look. A common, fallacious, harmful, unproductive tactic amongst these kinds of crowds. (See: "This person doesn't deserve to be listened to" comments directed at the Yale faculty member.)

[WampusCat]

A comment to all parties in this discussion:

I believe it is possible to disagree, even on issues you feel passionate about, without attacking the motives or character of those who see matters differently than you. It's more effective, more illuminating, more civil and more likely to build and preserve friendships.

Even a Hall of Fire can benefit from more light, less heat.

[Frelga]

Yov, you are still focusing on the reaction rather than the action. c

[yovargas]

Which action, the email?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Did you listen to the npr story that I posted?

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[yovargas]

I tried but it didn't work. If there's important info I'm missing on this Faramond's link did not present, I'm all ears. That article is all I've seen on this (and I read it quite skeptically as the author was clearly taking a side but the facts seemed fairly presented).

[Faramond]

If you really think that the issue is just about Halloween costumes, then there isn't really any point in even having this discussion.

Not a helpful statement. Doesn't explain or engage, just dismisses the other person's viewpoint.


http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... ce/415080/

These people are definitely have totalitarian tendencies. Both free speech and free press are under attack.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I tried but it didn't work. If there's important info I'm missing on this Faramond's link did not present, I'm all ears. That article is all I've seen on this (and I read it quite skeptically as the author was clearly taking a side but the facts seemed fairly presented).

Here is an article written by the same student that was interviewed by NPR. Take it for whatever it is worth to you.

https://medium.com/@aaronzlewis/what-s- ... dbbeeb57a6

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk