"Privilege"

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Cerin
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by Cerin »

axordil wrote:What a dignified existence entails is itself not universally agreed on, much less whether it should be universally experienced.
I was suggesting that the logical end result of your use of the word, is to make any aspect of human existence not universally enjoyed (in whatever environment you choose to consider), a privilege.


Apparently we will have to be content agreeing to disagree. (However, I've gone from regarding this misuse of the word as merely unhelpful and incorrect, to thinking it actually dangerous in its potential ramifications.)
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by yovargas »

axordil wrote:If I can do something without thought, and you have to carefully consider possible negative ramifications I don't, or possibly not even consider it at all, solely because I'm X and you're Y? It doesn't matter whether everyone "should" be able to do it, or NO ONE "should" be able to do it: that's a privilege.
Framing it this way has this way of making it sound like the problem is with the Haves when what we're trying to address and correct is the Have-Nots.

I've gone on dates where the other person was afraid to hold my hand in public for fear of their safety. As a straight person, you've likely never had to think of such a problem. Is that your "privilege"? I surely don't view it that way but more than that, I don't see how trying to frame it that way does anything to help me.
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by Frelga »

yovargas wrote: Framing it this way has this way of making it sound like the problem is with the Haves when what we're trying to address and correct is the Have-Nots.
Damn right the problem is with the Haves. People voting against same sex marriage, for instance, HAVE the right to marry. THEY are the ones that define it as a privilege that you don't deserve.
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by Cerin »

yovargas wrote: Framing it this way has this way of making it sound like the problem is with the Haves when what we're trying to address and correct is the Have-Nots.
Yes, this privilege construct is all about the Haves.
I surely don't view it that way but more than that, I don't see how trying to frame it that way does anything to help me.
As you observe above, it isn't meant to help you. It's meant to help those who don't have to fear holding hands on a date, have a better understanding of the difficulties you face. Sadly, it's bound to be a total failure, because the huge boulder in the middle of the road (the miscast 'privilege') is blocking you from view.
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by Faramond »

Reading this thread I've realized that the inside-out nature of calling what should be rights "privileges" is indeed the POINT: if you belong to the group that suffers from the bad treatment racism still produces, then what other, luckier people consider to be "rights" function for you like "privileges." To which your access is limited.

And it is good (even if upsetting) for the people who don't suffer so much from the effects of racism to be reminded that what should be "rights" are (under current imperfect circumstances) still functionally "privileges," though we all hope for better days ahead eventually.

So the use of "privilege" here is not a mistake: it's an educational twist.
Teremia, who are you trying to educate?



Here is something I consider far more educational than any analogy or explanation of privilege.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/25/opinion/n ... wn-police/

It is foolish spend time with abstraction that you know will make people defensive when you can just get right to the heart of the matter and tell the ugly truth. If the truth makes people uncomfortable that is too bad. No apologies for the truth. But if an abstraction is making people uncomfortable and getting in the way of them hearing the truth, then get rid of the abstraction. We don't need a middle-man here.

When you talk about privilege the receptive audience is going to be some subset of people who already agree with you and understand that in America not all rights are truly universal and that sexism and racism are still very real. You will educate or convert no one by talking about privilege. Instead, just tell the truth. Give examples. One example is worth three thousand cycling analogies.


yova wrote:I've gone on dates where the other person was afraid to hold my hand in public for fear of their safety. As a straight person, you've likely never had to think of such a problem. Is that your "privilege"? I surely don't view it that way but more than that, I don't see how trying to frame it that way does anything to help me.
This is exactly right. The sentence I italicized educates. It tells the truth. It is a statement of fact, not an abstraction. It may make people defensive, but that is their problem. You never apologize for the truth.

The sentence I bolded challenged. It also tells what is likely the truth. It is even more likely to make people defensive -- and here I would say that normally you should also say this anyway. But I also think it depends on who you are talking to and what your goals are. Of course you shouldn't have to pull punches, but if the goal is to convert people to caring about the ability of everyone to hold hands in public then you might consider how much to push. The first sentence is non-negotiable -- it has to be said.

I do not deny that one can construct very good arguments that the ability of straight people to hold hands in public is a kind of 'privilege'. What I question is the value of doing so. I don't think it will help anything in the real world. I don't think it will convince anyone to support gay rights or to speak up when a friend or co-worker says something homophobic.

Never forget that people are moved to change the world by narratives, not abstractions.
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

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But you have to make the narrative something they can relate to and understand. If people are blinded by their own perceptions of how a certain race/class/gender behaves then a narrative like Trevyor Martin won't have any effect. A talk show guest once called him a wanna-be gangster because that is how that person perceives black men. Examples have their own problems.

But by all means let's talk about semantics, words to use, the right ways to educate people. And avoid the real issue.


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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

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Inanna wrote: But by all means let's talk about semantics, words to use, the right ways to educate people. And avoid the real issue.
Like I said earlier, fiddling while the city burns. In this case, Ferguson. Because what the disadvantaged/under-privileged/<whatever makes you most comfortable> groups really need is coaching in how to talk about their disadvantages/lack of privileges/<whatever makes you most comfortable> without making the advantaged/privileged/<whatever makes you most comfortable> feel bad. Because feeling bad, like, feels bad and stuff.

And now I'm going to get chewed out for making someone uncomfortable. But you know what, these conversations are SUPPOSED to be uncomfortable. That's the bloody point. It's hard to make changes from a position of comfort. And yes, being nudged out of your comfort zone can make you resentful. Such is life. Even if you personally chose to depart your comfort zone you can get resentful. It wasn't supposed to be this hard, I didn't think I'd have to sacrifice this much, this is much scarier than I was led to believe, I wasn't supposed to be here alone, etc. Such is life. And yes, being nudged out of your comfort zone can make you want to shut down or flee. Even if you chose to do the thing that put you in that position. Such is life. You either face and push your limits or you get boxed in. Your call.
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

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River wrote: Because what the disadvantaged/under-privileged/<whatever makes you most comfortable> groups really need is coaching in how to talk about their disadvantages/lack of privileges/<whatever makes you most comfortable> without making the advantaged/privileged/<whatever makes you most comfortable> feel bad.
As I said earlier, if you want people to talk about what you actual mean, say what you actually mean. If you don't want people to talk about what you actual mean, by all means use whatever terms and phrases you desire.
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

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IAWR&I
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by axordil »

Fine, people don't like the frickin' bicycle analogy. Guess what? Not everyone's brain works the same way.

I can state with 100% certainty that some people (a few of my relatives pop to mind) are more affected by analogies that touch on some aspect of life with which they're familiar than by all the "concrete examples" between now and the heat death of the universe (or the Big Crunch, or the Big Dark, depending on which theory one likes), if those examples don't involve someone they see as a person.

But we're still talking about people who can be reached somehow. Of more concern are those who are uninterested in any approach, because they refuse to jeopardize their perceived standing in the hegemony (for some reason, I'm now picturing the scene in Blazing Saddles where the townspeople said they're okay with the blacks and the Chinese, but they won't take the Irish). As a rule, barring some Saul on the road to Damascus moment, the only way they will change is when they die.

I was suggesting that the logical end result of your use of the word, is to make any aspect of human existence not universally enjoyed (in whatever environment you choose to consider), a privilege.


That's because it is. The concept of intrinsic rights is what obfuscates, because it relies at some level on Neoplatonic BS or other unfalsifiables. A "right" is an empty platitude of a word without someone in a position of authority to define and protect it. Societies do so in an uneven fashion, if they do so at all, with whoever historically has been in power serving as the default until a revolution creates a new hegemony. Thus, no right is intrinsic: they're all up to us to decide on, as a society and as individuals. Which means they're not rights at all.

And with that I depart the discussion, lest I say something intemperate.
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by Faramond »

But you have to make the narrative something they can relate to and understand. If people are blinded by their own perceptions of how a certain race/class/gender behaves then a narrative like Trevyor Martin won't have any effect. A talk show guest once called him a wanna-be gangster because that is how that person perceives black men. Examples have their own problems.

But by all means let's talk about semantics, words to use, the right ways to educate people. And avoid the real issue.
But what is the real issue? If you really think the real issue is white privilege, I must disagree strongly. That was my whole initial point in this thread, that the real issue is being ignored.

The real issue is not white privilege. It is police brutality, and police acting like the army, and racism by the police -- and -- but it's not all about the police. The real issue is also pervasive black poverty caused by systemic racism, in the courts, and the education system, and financial institutions. The real issue is not white privilege. For heaven's sake. The real issue is white racism. Talk about not wanting to feel uncomfortable -- why do people prefer this abstraction of privilege to the ugly reality of what is happening?

And it's going to take generations, I fear, to address these real issues. And part of the solution will be education, or changing minds. So yeah, that needs to be talked about. And axordil's relatives notwithstanding, I don't think the best approach in most cases is to go right to white privilege. Seriously, if that works, great, but I'm just -- very skeptical.
Like I said earlier, fiddling while the city burns. In this case, Ferguson. Because what the disadvantaged/under-privileged/<whatever makes you most comfortable> groups really need is coaching in how to talk about their disadvantages/lack of privileges/<whatever makes you most comfortable> without making the advantaged/privileged/<whatever makes you most comfortable> feel bad. Because feeling bad, like, feels bad and stuff.
In the context of Ferguson, to my knowlege no one in this thread is disadvantaged or under-privileged. It is interesting that in the link I provided the author didn't talk about white privilege. I mean, the ingredients were there -- she could have talked about it if she wanted to -- she certainly gave enough examples to prove it exists -- but that wasn't the point.
And now I'm going to get chewed out for making someone uncomfortable. But you know what, these conversations are SUPPOSED to be uncomfortable. That's the bloody point. It's hard to make changes from a position of comfort. And yes, being nudged out of your comfort zone can make you resentful. Such is life. Even if you personally chose to depart your comfort zone you can get resentful. It wasn't supposed to be this hard, I didn't think I'd have to sacrifice this much, this is much scarier than I was led to believe, I wasn't supposed to be here alone, etc. Such is life. And yes, being nudged out of your comfort zone can make you want to shut down or flee. Even if you chose to do the thing that put you in that position. Such is life. You either face and push your limits or you get boxed in. Your call.
Feeling uncomfortable is not the point. How does feeling uncomfortable help anyone? You imply that feeling uncomfortable is a pre-requisite for making changes, but I don't see why.

My argument against using 'white privilege' as a tool is not because it makes people uncomfortable. It is because it doesn't address the real problems and the psychology of it is all wrong if you actually hope to get through to people.

I explicitly said that the truth should be told even when it makes people uncomfortable. So yes, these conversation are supposed to be uncomfortable in the sense that discomfort is a product of telling the truth. But there's no intrinsic utility to anyone else in simply being uncomfortable.
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by Inanna »

I am totally fine with calling it white racism. And I agree with your post - it will take generations. And the words used in each generation will be different, will change, and will mean different things to different people (like pro-choice and pro-life do) but the issues (such as the multiple ones you raised) will need to be addressed.


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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by Faramond »

Thanks, Inanna.

I think I probably shouldn't have posted here in the way that I did. I thought about it a bit and it's obviously not working out well. I do take seriously what the community is like and to be honest I am not really a part of this community anymore so I shouldn't come in and be an irritant. I misjudged what would work here and what wouldn't, and that is my fault. ( I'm not trying to blame anyone else. ) If I believed in erasing posts I might even go back and do that but I don't so I won't.

I may try again later to post in a way that isn't irritating to other posters. Probably a different thread.
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by Teremia »

Faramond, I was glad to see you here in the Hall. And to answer your question to me, it was myself I was trying to educate--that is, I understood something I hadn't quite understood before. :)
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by narya »

Faramond, I don't often speak up here - in fact this one of the very few Lasto threads I have posted in - but I do read, and am educated, by wise words from all different points of view. I value yours and hope you will continue to post.
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by JewelSong »

Faramond wrote:I think I probably shouldn't have posted here in the way that I did.
Yes, you should have. It was a perfectly good post - pertinent, intelligent, well-said and honest.
I may try again later to post in a way that isn't irritating to other posters.
Being irritated is not that terrible. In a forum such as this, it must be expected that people will have differing and strong opinions. As long as a post is respectful and doesn't personally attack anyone, it should be acceptable to state whatever opinion you have. If it irritates some people, well - I don't think you can have any kind of fruitful and meaningful dialogue about these kinds of issues without ticking *somebody* off.

And if you say that you are "not part of this community" again, I may have to come out to where you are myself and set you straight.

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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

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Faramond wrote:The real issue is not white privilege. It is police brutality, and police acting like the army, and racism by the police -- and -- but it's not all about the police. The real issue is also pervasive black poverty caused by systemic racism, in the courts, and the education system, and financial institutions. The real issue is not white privilege. For heaven's sake. The real issue is white racism. Talk about not wanting to feel uncomfortable -- why do people prefer this abstraction of privilege to the ugly reality of what is happening?
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

It is very easy to say "the real problem is not white privilege, it is white racism" because the corollary of that is "I'm no racist, so its not my problem."

Well, it is my problem.
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by yovargas »

In what way exactly do you mean that it is your problem?
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Re: So there's this riot going on right now

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

It is my problem in that I live in a society which some members do not enjoy the same, yes, privileges, that I enjoy.
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