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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:05 pm 
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:D

One for 'hearts, not heads'. ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:54 pm 
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A couple of points to make, the Scots and the Welsh can both argue legitimately that the Govt in Westminster doesn't represent the votes in their contries, by the same token so can large swathes of the North.

Many Scots remember with great bitterness the poll tax that was imposed on them by Margret Thatcher, when there were virtually no Scottish MP's that supported it. That one venal act was the best recruiting sargeant the nationalists ever had. Scottish nationalism alays increases when the conservatives are in power, this was particularly trues with Tony Blair and new labour, whose right wing policies effectively destroyed Scottish labours hegenomy in the Scottish parliament which led to Salmond getting his majority. If i lived in Scotland I would strongly be tempted to vote Yes. The only thing that would constrain me is Salmond, who I find untrustworthy, almost as duplicitous a person as Clegg. However liviny in England I hope to God that they vote no, as an energised Scottish labour vote will ensure that the tories loose the next election and the liberals are sent to which ever circle of hell is reserved for liars, frauds and cheats

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:56 pm 
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Pearly Di wrote:
Passdagas the Brown wrote:
Personally, I have very mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I think "romanticism" and "dignity" should not be scoffed at, and if most Scots believe that they will "feel" better as an independent nation, then that's a big deal (which is why I dislike the "vote with your heads, not your hearts" meme, which belittles less materialistic motivations, such as dignity).


The margin is narrow, so 'most' Scots might mean 52% of the country (according to some recent polls). Which means that 48% would not 'feel' better about it. ;) That is a pretty big portion of a country not feeling good about it. I have a Scottish friend who will be devastated if the Yes vote goes through, and this person is very proud to be Scottish and proud of their national heritage - no English colonialist is brainwashing them on this issue. ;)

And it is not about belittling 'less materialistic motivations'. That is ironic given that Alex Salmond, the leader of the Scottish National Party, will be courting big, fat, corporate interests to ensure lots of creation-wealth. ;) To me it's about looking stark reality in the face and not flinching from it. Both Britain and America still have problems with debt and Western culture is still all about the spend, spend, spend. Do people seriously think that the 2008 financial crash was the end of it? I very much doubt that.

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On the other hand, as an American, I feel a ruptured United Kingdom will remove a reliable ally from the world stage - one that has had the capability to assist in some of the most important humanitarian actions and interventions in this and the last century.


Yes.

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Though for those who disagree with the "Yes" campaign, it is worth reflecting on this as an example of the potentially serious consequences of a Constitution-less nation...


But we do have a constitution. Just because we don't have one single constitutional document, like many other nations, doesn't mean we don't have a constitution. :) I do confess I've been shocked by the attitude of Westminster. If you give people a choice, a referendum, don't act all surprised if they actually look like voting Yes! :nono:

In other news, apparently 42% of English people aren't bothered whether Scotland leaves or not. Well, they should be bothered. That kind of political apathy is not encouraging. And England could show she loves Scotland a little more. :roll: The Yes vote will impact on everyone in the UK.


Di,

Strong points. Actually, I do think that a referendum on an action so enormously consequential should require a qualified majority vote in order to pass (something like 2/3 of the vote). A simple majority referendum on separatism seems too low a bar, IMO, and as you point out, leaves a large portion of the population feeling potentially very alienated.

And yes, I did mean a clear "constitutional document" when calling the UK "constitution-less." I do feel that the loose collection of documents and legal precedents that hold the UK together are not well-suited to keeping the country together under such circumstances. For U.S. states, the federal Constitution (plus an enormous amount of legal and military precedent) essentially mark secession as illegal. I understand the significant difference between the United Kingdom (which is a union of nations with very disparate histories and historical grievances) and the United States (which is a union of generally homogenous states). The former was grounded in consociationalism by design (at the time) AND necessity, and that reality leaves the door open to significant devolution, as well as possible separation. But I feel that in recent times (say, the 1990s), when the relationship between Scotland and Westminster was generally harmonious, that far-thinking British leaders should have perhaps made an effort to further entwine Scotland in UK governance structures, rather than concede so much to the devolution advocates. Too much devolution is essentially a slippery slope that makes separatism more likely, and I think there was a chance a few decades ago to better prepare for (and prevent) such an eventuality.

Though the Welsh are generally more content with Westminster than the Scots, it's not implausible that independence movements in Wales may start to gain a stronger foothold.

But again, apart from being worried about the weakening of a major western power, I have no personal "dog in this fight," and can only approach the issue in the abstract. So I sympathize with your anxiety, and hope that everything turns out best for the largest number of people!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:08 pm 
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Lán de Grás
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And, for the lighter side:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:31 pm 
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Jude, I was JUST going to post that! I just finished watching it through a link on YouTube, and I am CRYING with laughter!!

LOVE John Oliver!! :rotfl:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:12 pm 
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I have just read that Scotland as an independent country would not be a member of the EU. Is this discussed in the current situation or not at all?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:53 pm 
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They probably would not be in NATO either, or the UN for that matter. Those have to happen separately.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:06 pm 
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John Oliver is Hilarious!!

As for being part of unions and trade agreements, those would be post-vote scrambles.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:29 pm 
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Well, EU has suspended all admission process for at least the next five years, so that could be quite a big problem (living in a non EU country, I see how hard negotiating with the EU is). And all countries becoming members are supposed to take the engagement to join the Euro as quickly as possible.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:07 pm 
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Polls are now closed, and we're all impatiently awaiting the results... :wimper:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:56 pm 
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Highly-likely the NOs have it. Here comes "devo-max," and all the long-term implications that may result from that.

In some ways, a NO vote may be more likely to hasten the eventual comprehensive break up of the UK than a YES vote. With devo-max, Scotland will have an unprecedented level of autonomy from Westminster, while still having reps in Westminster voting on decisions that barely affect Scotland, but significantly affect Wales, England and Northern Ireland. It's in some ways the political equivalent of the the US granting the southern states (or the northern or the western) near-independence from the union, whilst simultaneously allowing those states to significantly shape national policy. The states remaining in the union would surely revolt!

Devo-max, in other words, will not stand for long, and will lead to more persistent calls for devolution elsewhere in the UK (particularly England and Wales). Which may ultimately all end up in the breakup of the UK not that far down the line.

This is not inevitable, but if Scotland has its cake and eats it with the devolution deal, the likelihood of significant political devolution across the country will increase significantly. Perhaps what we are seeing is simply a very natural evolution towards a federal (or federal-esque) system in the UK, with England, Wales and Northern Ireland eventually being granted their own parliaments alongside Westminster.

After this vote, I think a very prudent idea would be for Westminster to call a Constitutional Convention - a solution the "Electoral Reform Society" has been pushing for a while now. Let people across the UK devise a new framework for how they would like to be governed.


Last edited by Passdagas the Brown on Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:29 am 
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For those who haven't yet heard, the proposal went down by a pretty hefty 55-45 margin.

PtB is right that the status quo cannot remain forever. A devolved English Parliament and a genuine US/Canada/Australia-style federation is possibly the simplest choice, but so far the idea has failed to attract much support. But there has to be a serious re-think about how the United Kingdom will work going forward.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:36 am 
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I don't know...to me, 45% - 55% doesn't seem that "hefty." It means that almost half the people who voted wanted independence. I'm sorry, in a way, that it didn't pass. I do not have much confidence that things will change with the present government, which seems unbelievably out-of-touch and clueless.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:04 am 
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JewelSong wrote:
I don't know...to me, 45% - 55% doesn't seem that "hefty."


It did significantly exceed the recent opinion polls, which is one reason why I think that the 'Yes' crowd were so glum this evening. I suspect that, when it came down to it, the undecideds decided that the risks were simply to great and the case for change had not been made (which I happen to agree with it).


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:09 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:54 pm 
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Ah, the electorate. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:05 am 
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The Onion's take on the results of the referendum is actually quite relevant to our little board:

Ugly Custody Battle Over Ian McKellen Narrowly Avoided

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:46 pm 
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:rofl: Indeed!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:40 am 
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I have to admit, I am disappointed in the results of this vote. I was hoping that Scotland would go through with it, much like I keep hoping Quebec would go through with it. There was obviously real panic about it, because in advertising against it all the stops were pulled out to convince people not to, with threats of economic crisis of Scotland wasn't part of England's participation in the EU common market.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:39 pm 
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Scotland's leader seeks new independence referendum

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Scotland's leader delivered a shock twist to Britain's EU exit drama on Monday, announcing she will seek authority to hold a new independence referendum in the next two years because Britain is dragging Scotland out of the EU against its will.


Even though I was firmly behind the "remain" side in the first referendum, I would be strongly considering the "leave" side this time around. Even though Britain as a whole voted to leave the EU, Scotland voted to remain (62 to 38). They're essentially being forced to leave the EU against their will.

They narrowly voted to remain in Britain last time. My prediction is if this referendum is allowed to go ahead, they will vote to leave by a fairly significant margin.

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