It is currently Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:20 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:39 am 
Offline
of Vinyamar
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:39 pm
Posts: 7879
Location: Ireland
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1192 ... vance-work

Interesting article on Gender politics, with all the variables the same, except one. Gender.

Quote:
Ben Barres is a biologist at Stanford who lived and worked as Barbara Barres until he was in his forties. For most of his career, he experienced bias, but didn’t give much weight to it—seeing incidents as discrete events. (When he solved a tough math problem, for example, a professor said, “You must have had your boyfriend solve it.”) When he became Ben, however, he immediately noticed a difference in his everyday experience: “People who don't know I am transgendered treat me with much more respect,” he says. He was more carefully listened to and his authority less frequently questioned. He stopped being interrupted in meetings. At one conference, another scientist said, "Ben gave a great seminar today—but then his work is so much better than his sister's." (The scientist didn't know Ben and Barbara were the same person.) “This is why women are not breaking into academic jobs at any appreciable rate,” he wrote in response to Larry Summers’s famous gaffe implying women were less innately capable at the hard sciences. “Not childcare. Not family responsibilities,” he says. “I have had the thought a million times: I am taken more seriously.”

_________________
Image
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:59 pm 
Offline
chocolate bearer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:27 am
Posts: 3335
Location: beachcombing, or hiking, or dragon boating
My transgender son can see the difference in the way he is treated by those that don't know him, depending on whether or not he has a small beard that week. Without it, he could still easily be mistaken for a woman.

I was heavily discriminated against when I first entered the engineering field. It was appalling, in fact. I'd like to think things have gotten a little better since then and that people value me as a professional regardless of my looks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

_________________
In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer.

And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there’s something stronger – something better, pushing right back.

~ Albert Camus


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:45 pm 
Offline
Wrong within normal parameters
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:59 am
Posts: 4188
Location: The other side of Michigan
Alatar wrote:
When he solved a tough math problem, for example, a professor said, “You must have had your boyfriend solve it.”


It's unclear exactly when this happened, but making that sort of comment would get you in a lot of trouble now. Especially at a university. Especially especially at a university in California.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:10 pm 
Offline
Just Keep Singin'
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:35 am
Posts: 4645
Location: Boston, MA
Dave, people still say cr*p like that all the time. It only "gets you in trouble" if the person it was said to is prepared to make a stink about it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

_________________
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:13 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32645
Quite true, unfortunately.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:22 pm 
Offline
Wrong within normal parameters
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:59 am
Posts: 4188
Location: The other side of Michigan
People say all sorts of stuff all the time when there is no power dynamic. Less often, they say stuff even when there is one. But a professor to a student? I could easily see that turning national-headlines bad for him. Which isn't to say I don't believe it happens, but I bet it happens a lot less often than it did even 30 years ago (just a guess at when the incident may have occurred). But that's all beside the larger point of the article.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:44 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32645
Actually, it happens quite a bit at Stanford in particular, I'm sorry to say.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:50 pm 
Offline
bioalchemist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:08 am
Posts: 9735
Location: the dry land
The philosophy department at CU Boulder is in heaps of trouble right now for bad behavior towards women and a few other things. The thing is, and the reason a woman who's been smacked with sexism might not come forward is first you don't really want to believe or recognize that such a thing happened to you and second, you, the accuser, are going to be taking a lot of heat for bringing forth the accusation.

Barres wrote an article about his post-transition experiences some years ago. It made the rounds in the lab I was working in. The women found it depressing. The men didn't get it. But they rarely do. That is their privilege.

I am actively looking for work as a scientist. I am also a female of reproductive age. The former is blatant. I have a very feminine first name. The latter you can suss out pretty easily from the dates on my resume. There's no way to tell from my resume that I actually have a child, but still 80% of American women will have a baby in their lifetime. I can't help but wonder if that isn't why I don't even get a phone interview, though I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons why.

Also, I got in so much trouble as a graduate student whenever I stood up for myself that I pretty much stopped doing it. This is not helpful to me at all. When one of my male colleagues pushes and nudges and doesn't take no for an answer, he's showing leadership, being strong, whatever. When I do it, I'm being rude, pushy, inconsiderate, and so on. Throw in a good lab mind-frak and I have some stories it just hurts too much to tell. I try to tell myself it's just me, I just stand up wrong, I'm just a wuss, but...I wonder. Oh how I wonder.

I also had a labmate in graduate school who had an alarming tendency to "bump" into my behind. There is an official channel for dealing with that, but remember what I said about taking heat? It wouldn't just be me substantiating the claim to my supervisor and whoever else I went to, it would be my supervisor leaning on me very hard to keep it all under wraps because this sort of thing would reflect poorly on the lab. So I dealt with it by threatening to charge him $5 every time he did that. He stopped.

_________________
When you can do nothing what can you do?


Last edited by River on Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:55 pm 
Offline
Wrong within normal parameters
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:59 am
Posts: 4188
Location: The other side of Michigan
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Actually, it happens quite a bit at Stanford in particular, I'm sorry to say.


I'm really surprised to hear that. Does tenure protect professors who behave that way? I've just heard of so many people getting fired or disciplined for so much less.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:07 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32645
For each of the ones that get fired or disciplined there are probably dozens that never do.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:15 pm 
Offline
Aagragaah
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 12715
Location: Out on the banks
And scores of women who get into more trouble than the men they complain about.

_________________
Image
‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:22 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32645
Sadly, true. Which is not to say that things haven't gotten better. Just that there is a very long way to go.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:55 pm 
Offline
Aagragaah
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 12715
Location: Out on the banks
I came here looking for a thread to share this. Not that I think our men need that advice, but you never know when you may need to pass it on. ;)

The Rock Test: A Hack for Men Who Don’t Want To Be Accused of Sexual Harassment

But as I scrolled down the forum, it occurred to me that there is a simpler way to answer the question in the thread title. Just ask a woman.

_________________
Image
‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:25 am 
Offline
of Vinyamar
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:39 pm
Posts: 7879
Location: Ireland
Yeah, but its wouldn't be as funny! :)

_________________
Image
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:01 pm
Posts: 954
It goes a little farther than that. The creeps will be creeps, by definition. The rest are going to extraordinary measures to avoid being lumped with them, to the detriment of everyone.

It’s Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone With the Opposite Sex.
Article published July 1st, before the current news story about the guy in Hollywood.

Also this, a more recent story.
Unintended Consequences of Sexual Harassment Scandals

Quote:
But elsewhere, men have begun avoiding solo interactions with women altogether. In Austin, Tex., a city official was formally reprimanded last month for refusing to meet with female employees, after he ended regular mentoring lunches with one.

Some tech investors have taken similar steps. “A big chill came across Silicon Valley in the wake of all these stories, and people are hyperaware and scared of behaving wrongly, so I think they’re drawing all kinds of parameters,” said a venture capitalist who spoke anonymously for the same reason.

Some are avoiding solo meetings with female entrepreneurs, potential recruits and those who ask for an informational or networking meeting.

“Before, you might have said, ‘Of course I would do that, and I will especially do it for minorities, including women in Silicon Valley,’ ” the investor said. “Now you cancel it because you have huge reputational risk all of a sudden.”

_________________
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:03 am 
Offline
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 38573
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
But who are the spoilers here? Is it the women who started finding the strength to speak up? Or the jerks who sexually abused them?

Let's just lay the blame where it belongs.

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:56 am 
Offline
Throw me a rope.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:13 pm
Posts: 5688
Location: Deep in Oz
Quote:
But elsewhere, men have begun avoiding solo interactions with women altogether. In Austin, Tex., a city official was formally reprimanded last month for refusing to meet with female employees, after he ended regular mentoring lunches with one.

Some tech investors have taken similar steps. “A big chill came across Silicon Valley in the wake of all these stories, and people are hyperaware and scared of behaving wrongly, so I think they’re drawing all kinds of parameters,” said a venture capitalist who spoke anonymously for the same reason.

Some are avoiding solo meetings with female entrepreneurs, potential recruits and those who ask for an informational or networking meeting.

“Before, you might have said, ‘Of course I would do that, and I will especially do it for minorities, including women in Silicon Valley,’ ” the investor said. “Now you cancel it because you have huge reputational risk all of a sudden.”


Here's the thing, though: you only have a huge risk if you act like a jerk. If you act decently, like you would if there's someone watching, there is no risk - unless one assumes that all, or most, complaints are fraudulent.

Which they are not.

The problem is not that the women CLAIMED these men acted like jerks. These men, in fact, acted like jerks.

If the fear is that suddenly all women are going to cynically make false claims, that is a leap of false logic. Of course there will be false claims, but no more than there ever were because the world's population of female sociopaths is not going to suddenly jump.


Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

_________________
Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:24 am 
Offline
Aagragaah
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 12715
Location: Out on the banks
Yeah... I don't see how, after a story of systemic, deliberate, devious abuses has been made public it is in any way logical for any rational person to come to the conclusion that the correct reaction is to stop perfectly innocent and professional interactions for fear of false accusations.

Of course, it's all "some say" and "many feel", and possibly "this author made up for not entirely nice reasons."

_________________
Image
‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:26 am 
Offline
not something I would recommend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:13 pm
Posts: 12845
Location: Florida
Impenitent wrote:
Of course there will be false claims, but no more than there ever were because the world's population of female sociopaths is not going to suddenly jump.


But women are crazy dontcha know!

_________________
everything happens so much

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:21 pm 
Offline
bioalchemist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:08 am
Posts: 9735
Location: the dry land
Maybe start with "Your coworkers are excluded from the mating game and they did not take this job to get dates" and proceed from there?Seriously, it's not that hard to not harass a colleague. If all else fails, talk about work. That's what you're at the workplace for anyway. Once you've figured out the magic of boundaries you can progress to the standard bull sessions but if you're so afraid of your social skills that you're convinced "What's the best lunch spot?" or "Can you believe what happened on Game of Thrones last night??" could be misconstrued then stick with "What's the proper format for this report?" or "When's that printer getting fixed?"

But, of course, harassment isn't the primary problem with advancing in the workplace. It's getting lots of attention right now, but the bigger issue (and the one Prof. Barre was writing about) is one of biases and how they play into perception of work quality and ethic, which spills over into basic respect.

_________________
When you can do nothing what can you do?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group