Should we separate the author from the work?

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Should we separate the author from the work?

Post by Alatar »

This is something I often wondered about when people were calling for boycotts of Mel Gibson's movies because he was a racist/bigot/anti-Semite. Would The Lord of the Rings mean any less to me if we suddenly unearthed evidence that Tolkien was a Nazi, or a Racist. Or even, to take this to its ultimate extreme, if he had been proven to be a mass murderer. Would it alter at all the novel that we know and love?

This is in the news now because Orson Scott Card, who wrote the upcoming"Ender's Game" is a notoriously outspoken homophobe and bigot. His novel espouses almost the opposite values. So should we punish the work and those who love it, simply because the author is a douchebag? Should we punish the thousands of people involved in the making of the movie, many of whom are LGBT?

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts!

SAN DIEGO – As far as pre-Comic-Con publicity kerfuffles go, the lead-up to Ender’s Game‘s arrival at the annual pop culture convention’s was a perfect storm.

First, there was the incident in February when Orson Scott Card—the author of the book on which the film is based—found himself the subject of backlash when fans—citing his anti-gay-marriage views—decried his selection as the author of an upcoming Superman story. Then, at the end of June, the Supreme Court struck down the Defense of Marriage Act and declined to rule on California’s Proposition 8 case—effectively extending many benefits to same-sex couples married in states that allow it and permitting those unions to resume in California.

Shortly after the ruling, a group called Geeks OUT launched an online campaign called “Skip Ender’s Game,” which called on sci-fi fans to not give money to a movie based on Card’s work. The award-winning sci-fi author subsequently issued a statement to Entertainment Weekly calling the same-sex marriage issue “moot” and making a somewhat ironic plea for tolerance. Eventually even Summit Entertainment and its parent company Lionsgate even had to issue a statement distancing itself from Card’s views.

“When Ender’s Game started to go into pre-production there was a lot of chatter about what this meant in terms of his role as a producer,” Geeks OUT board member Patrick Yacco told Wired. “Obviously it was too late to get Lionsgate to change their mind about doing the movie so going into it we knew that Ender’s Game was happening. So we decided in early 2012 to think of ways to draw attention to his homophobia.”

A woman waits for an answer to her question about the controversy over Orson Scott Card after cutting the question line at the Ender’s Game panel at Comic-Con’s Hall H. Photo: Alex Washburn/Wired

Then the dust-up came to the Comic-Con International floor. During the film’s big panel at Hall H Thursday—essentially it’s coming out party for its core fanbase—right after the requisite exclusive clip and banter with moderator Chris Hardwick the first fan to ask a question, who butted in line to ask it, got right to the point. “There’s actually been a lot of controversy about the author of the book,” the young woman said. “How involved was he in making the film?” The response, from the film’s producer Roberto Orci, was direct.

“Obviously, we were first concerned with anyone who might be hurt by anything we were associated with,” Orci said. “But we’ve decided to use the attention to … completely and unequivocally support Lionsgate and Summit’s statement in defense of LGBT rights.”

The room broke out into applause.

Producer Roberto Orci (left) and director Gavin Hood (right) answer questions about Ender’s Game. Photo: Alex Washburn/Wired

But beyond the scene that played out at Comic-Con, the controversy over the adaptation of Card’s book has brought up a whole other host of questions about the relationships between fandom and media. Like, for example, how much does a creator’s personal politics affect how fans feel about the things they create, especially if those things don’t contain said personal politics? Or, say, is it fair for the the results of a movie boycott—lackluster opening weekend, overall loss of revenue—effect people beyond the intended target, like the studio, stars, and filmmakers? And, ultimately, do boycotts get a message across?

In an interesting turn last weekend, LGBT rights advocate and screenwriter Dustin Lance Black—who penned the Harvey Milk biopic Milk and the Prop. 8 play 8–came to the film’s defense saying “boycotting a movie made by 99 percent LGBT equality folks in an LGBT equality industry is a waste of our collective energy.”

And Lionsgate, the studio behind the film, has come out and said, “we obviously do not agree with the personal views of Orson Scott Card.” The studio’s statement also pointed to the discrepancies between Card’s politics and the fairly humanist viewpoints of his novel. “The simple fact is that neither the underlying book nor the film itself reflect these views in any way, shape or form,” the studio said, adding that it planned to host a premiere to benefit the LGBT community.

Director Gavin Hood puts a finer point on the disconnect between Card’s views and his work.

“For me the great themes of the book were, ‘Boy, I need to take responsibility for my own nature. I better find a way to be tolerant, compassionate, empathetic, and empathize with people who are different than me,” Hood told Wired. “Then I find the author is now expressing these very, in my view, intolerant views—where did all of that empathy go?”

Ultimately, it’s hard to tell what effect a boycott could have on Card himself. Originally Stop Ender’s Game‘s website asked “Do you really want to give this guy your money?” But it’s unclear if in giving over the rights to his book for a film adaptation he made a deal that will give him proceeds from ticket sales (Orci told Wired he was unsure of the particulars of Card’s book-option deal). Yacco notes, though, that if the film does well it could lead to future Card books getting optioned.

But there’s another side to the coin, Orci notes. “If people are going to do a cost-benefit analysis of who profits it’s the 667 people on this movie credited directly plus the other couple thousand that are part of the industry that helped release it,” he said – people that Hood added were “gay and straight, male and female, old and young.”

And a boycott, if successful, could potentially have another side effect in that if the movie performs poorly at the box office it may be hard to parse if that’s because LGBT rights advocates stayed home or because it was of a certain flavor of sci-fi that audiences just didn’t go for. It’s the same fear that’s crept up this summer amidst lackluster ticket sales for movies like Pacific Rim: If genre pictures cease performing well, eventually studios might just stop funding them. Then no one wins.

But with Ender’s Game, winning is kind of a big deal. There are many ways the film and the boycott against it could succeed or fail. The movie could do well—leading to more sci-fi films, potentially even those originally penned by Card, getting green-lit. LGBT rights advocates could not exercise the “tolerance” Card asked for and succeed in a boycott, causing the film to flop. All this heat on Card for his anti-same-sex-marriage views could even lead to an examination of conscience on his part. But that seems less likely.

However, regardless of the outcome, yesterday—at a panel for the movie adaptation of the most well-known book by the man who has become sci-fi’s most well-known crusader against gay marriage—someone said “LGBT rights” and the largest meeting room at Comic-Con broke out in applause.
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Post by Dave_LF »

With Tolkien the answer for me would be an unequivocal no. He's dead and gone and enjoying his work would do nothing to further any hypothetical nefarious agenda he may have had. The situation with Card is stickier since he's still around. The movie will presumably make him a lot of money. Will he use that money to promote a political agenda I oppose? If so, I wouldn't want to help him out. But if not, then I don't really care.
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Post by yovargas »

I've long been a strong proponent of separating art from artists. Good art is good art regardless of the source. However, that doesn't mean I'm always going to be comfortable giving an artist my money if they're a particularly awful person. Is Card getting any money from my movie ticket/purchase? If so, I doubt I'd be willing to pay it. If not, I'd have no problem (if the lackluster reviews hadn't removed my interest, that is).
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Post by Primula Baggins »

To me the reviews make it appear that the one aspect of Card's writing that made me stop reading him entirely is intact on the screen: cruelty. In this case, cruelty by and to children. I am literally not going there, even if there were no other reason to stay away.

Alatar's theoretical about what if we discovered that Tolkien had horrible beliefs or was some kind of monster . . . would we still love the books he wrote? I have a very stubborn reaction to that! I don't think it's remotely possible that a monster could have written LotR. I'm sure that if we examine everything about Tolkien, many of us will find some things we disagree with—he was a man of his time and class, and decent men like him harbored unexamined views that we would now consider sexist and probably at least mildly racist. And many wouldn't approve of his strong Catholic faith.

But none of that makes him a monster; and the kind of person Alatar describes would never be able to conceive of, let alone write, a book like LotR—a book that values pity even for evil. A monster could not even imagine Sam. So, for me the question is a non-issue.

Card, on the other hand—I haven't bought any of his work for many years. Not because I disagree with his politics, though I do; it's because I believe there is enough real cruelty in the world without inventing cruel fiction (and possibly desensitizing young readers to something that people can only fight if they are awake to it).
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by yovargas »

Primula Baggins wrote:But none of that makes him a monster; and the kind of person Alatar describes would never be able to conceive of, let alone write, a book like LotR—a book that values pity even for evil. A monster could not even imagine Sam. So, for me the question is a non-issue.
Back in my early 20s, I decided that I wanted a fuller understanding of the Holocaust and started to read several books about the subject. Difficult reading, as you surely know, but the one story that stuck with me as most deeply disturbing was of a camp officer who was especially cruel and vile towards his Jewish prisoners but would then later send the most sweet, kind, loving letters home to his wife and little daughter.

I have no doubt a "monster" could create LOTR.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I don't think one could conceive of LotR. we'll have to agree to disagree. (Letters home are on a different level—sociopaths fake it with their families all the time.)
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Alatar »

I agree with Yov on this one. People compartmentalize all the time. But lets forget the extreme examples. Tolkien could easily have written LotR while being a homophobe, a racist, and anti-Semite, a bourgeoisie, or even a wife-beater. In fact, by virtue of his upbringing he was probably at least three of those! Does that make his work less valuable?

Now, regarding the work of Orson Scott Card. We can be pretty sure that the vast majority of the money being made is going into the pockets of the Hollywood industry, and all the actors, crew and craftsmen that worked on the movie. Its keeping those people in work. providing them with absolute concrete support for their lifestyle. It needn't be said that that industry has a pretty high percentage of LGBT folk. So who would you be hurting by boycotting the movie? Not Orson Scott Card, but the very people you're claiming to defend.
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Post by Alatar »

A related article:
http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/10/enders-game/

The author has a different opinion to me, but in some ways I think she agrees with me also.
Ender’s Game was one of my first and most precious paper mirrors. I was a gifted and severely socially alienated little kid, and authors who can write really, freakishly brilliant children are extremely rare. Ender’s Game was an inestimably important touchstone — the first and sometimes only sign I had that there was someone out there who even vaguely got it and cared enough to try to write it down.
This for me is the crux:
It is unconscionable to keep supporting Card, to buy his books, to afford him any further platform. But if we all walk away and keep walking, someday a kid is going to reach for the touchstone that I clung to — and come up empty.
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Post by yovargas »

(xposts with Al)

But that's the thing, they weren't sociopaths , or at least one can't accuse the vast swath of Germans involved of that. No, they had just stopped thinking of Jews as humans and so that cruelty to them didn't "count". Dehumanizing your enemy or getting a message from God - either of these can make very good, very moral people do very bad, very immoral things.

While Tolkien was obviously a good man, an obvious case of this mentality already exists in LOTR - the orcs aren't human so their wholesale slaughter is totally fine, even with that "pity even evil" message.
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Post by kzer_za »

While Tolkien was obviously a good man, an obvious case of this mentality already exists in LOTR - the orcs aren't human so their wholesale slaughter is totally fine, even with that "pity even evil" message.
Of course, Tolkien himself thought the orcs were a problem and tried to find a solution, though he never landed on one that satisfied him.
Tolkien could easily have written LotR while being a homophobe, a racist, and anti-Semite, a bourgeoisie, or even a wife-beater. In fact, by virtue of his upbringing he was probably at least three of those!
Is being a bourgeoisie really in the same category as a wife-beater or racist?
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Post by axordil »

Reviews indicate the film moves the reveal up before the climax. I won't go into more details, but as far as I'm concerned that cuts the moral core of the story off at the knees.
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Post by Dave_LF »

For me it really comes down to what he does with his ideas. I'm not going to boycott someone just because he has different beliefs than I do--that would be absurd, and would leave me with very few purchasing options. And besides, the fact is that his opinions on homosexuality seem to be no more extreme than those held by slightly less than half the US population, and are probably less so. As far as I'm concerned, as long as he does nothing with them except vote and go off on the occasional rant, he can think whatever he wants. If he becomes some sort of active crusader against gay rights, then maybe it's appropriate to fight back.
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Post by axordil »

If he becomes some sort of active crusader against gay rights, then maybe it's appropriate to fight back.
Card crossed that line when he joined the board of the National Organization for Marriage, among other things.
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Post by Dave_LF »

Then maybe it's appropriate to fight back. But I still wouldn't boycott the movie just because I doubt it would accomplish anything.

I probably won't see the movie anyway, but that won't have anything to do with politics.
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Post by nerdanel »

yovargas wrote:(xposts with Al)

But that's the thing, they weren't sociopaths , or at least one can't accuse the vast swath of Germans involved of that. No, they had just stopped thinking of Jews as humans and so that cruelty to them didn't "count". Dehumanizing your enemy or getting a message from God - either of these can make very good, very moral people do very bad, very immoral things.

While Tolkien was obviously a good man, an obvious case of this mentality already exists in LOTR - the orcs aren't human so their wholesale slaughter is totally fine, even with that "pity even evil" message.
Yes. And arguably even the use of the word "monster" to refer to a human being (sorry, Prim) is an example of the ease with which it is possible to dehumanize people - even people we may very justifiably abhor due to their extreme actions. This may arguably be going off the central topic of the thread, but the term gives rise to a number of questions, including:

- What acts must one commit to qualify as a monster? (e.g., is a single murder enough, or must one commit mass murder, as Al posited)

- What is the purpose of using the term "monster," rather than a "person who has committed monstrous acts" or similar? It seems to me that the intent of the former term is to create a distinction between "them" and "us". While that distinction may be useful at times, it is often unhelpful because it is used to absolve society of responsibility for understanding why the "monster" committed the acts that rendered him a monster. Use of the word creates a tautology - he committed monstrous acts because he is a monster - and essentially absolves society of responsibility for understanding what prior experiences brought a human being to the point of making a decision to commit monstrous acts.

- And, can a "monster" ever be rehabilitated such that he is no longer a monster - such that, to use the examples you give, he could value pity even for evil; he could imagine Sam; he could conceive of a book with the beauty of LOTR. In many cases, the answer is no at least as to the last - I think less because rehabilitation is not possible and more because people who commit monstrous acts are usually so impaired and limited in other ways (mental illness, substance abuse/addiction, neurological damage, low IQ, etc.) that they simply do not have the intellectual capacity to prepare a work of LOTR's dimensions. (Indeed, most of us do not, myself included. Even for Tolkien, it took an extraordinary amount of time and resources to prepare.) Moreover, many of these people have come from conditions and are housed in conditions of extreme violence, conditions so limiting that it may indeed be difficult to learn about notions like pity for evil; this notion is difficult to fathom if your life experiences have taught you that pity is a form of weakness that will likely jeopardize your life or physical well-being. But I do think that, apart from these limitations, at least some of those who have reached the point of committing monstrous acts are at least in theory capable of rehabilitation and of understanding some of the concepts you describe. I'm not sure it is possible in all cases, just in some. I think it would be helpful for society to entertain the possibility, however. And in sharing these thoughts, I am compelled to reflect on how recent years have fundamentally and almost inexorably shaped and altered my perspective.

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Post by axordil »

And a lovely trip to Osgiliath it was, too. :) The topic of rehabilitation--redemptino is too charged theologically--is something lurking as a theme in my current WIP, so it's been on my mind too.

I like to think anyone could be rehabilitated...whatever is broken in them fixed, as it were...given enough time. Unfortunately the amount of time required may exceed a human lifespan.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Nel, thanks for your valuable (and I know hard-earned) insights on this.

Maybe it's too easy to use a term like "monster" to express the otherness of a human being when I want to distance myself from the acts that human being has committed. Maybe also it's a convenient shorthand for "a person who has committed monstrous acts." I'm not excusing it, just explaining why it was easy to go there. I've never (knowingly) met a human being who has committed a monstrous act. I would guess that you have.

A point, though: No doubt Tolkien privileges mercy because his comfortable life allowed him to do so. But I do think there are similarly privileged people alive today, some of them very powerful men, who, although they don't commit monstrous acts, still despise the idea of pity or mercy; it's "coddling the weak." It isn't just a dangerous life on the margins that produces pitiless people.

I do acknowledge my own pitilessness in my post above.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by yovargas »

(NEL!! :love: :love: )
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

Alatar wrote:I agree with Yov on this one. People compartmentalize all the time. But lets forget the extreme examples. Tolkien could easily have written LotR while being a homophobe, a racist, and anti-Semite, a bourgeoisie, or even a wife-beater. In fact, by virtue of his upbringing he was probably at least three of those! Does that make his work less valuable?

Now, regarding the work of Orson Scott Card. We can be pretty sure that the vast majority of the money being made is going into the pockets of the Hollywood industry, and all the actors, crew and craftsmen that worked on the movie. Its keeping those people in work. providing them with absolute concrete support for their lifestyle. It needn't be said that that industry has a pretty high percentage of LGBT folk. So who would you be hurting by boycotting the movie? Not Orson Scott Card, but the very people you're claiming to defend.
There's only one name in your list that Tolkien could have been, and that's a bourgeoisie. He could have been a wife-beater, though there is zero evidence to suggest that.

There is no evidence - and actually far more evidence to the contrary - that he was a racist, homophobe (he enjoyed Mary Renault's book whose main character was a rather virtuous Greek homosexual) or an Anti-Semite (he very explicitly rejected that moniker for himself, and expressed his admiration for the Jewish people).

This is all beside the point, but I think worth repeating.

I personally have great difficulty separating the art from the artist, so I don't quite know how I would react if it turned out Tolkien was a monster.

I do know that I have occasionally stopped listening to certain bands because of the hateful pedigree of one or more of the musicians...

So, I don't know. It's a hypothetical that I find impossible to definitively answer.
Last edited by Passdagas the Brown on Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Frelga »

The author is in the work. You can tell that Tolkien believed in inborn superiority of certain lineages (manifesting in fair skin and grey eyes, usually) or that he held Catholic views on fall and redemption just by reading the book.

Writing sweet letters to one's offspring is a very different matter from conceiving of a world where sacrifice trumps power and gardeners are honored as princes. NO WAY could a Nazi write LOTR.

Re Orcs - I would argue that the fact that it is only OK to slaughter inhuman predators, while human enemies are given every chance of surrender and redemption speaks highly of Tolkien's humanism. In LOTR and the Hobbit, even Orcs and goblins are only killed when they attack, IIRC. Aragorn even gives them a chance to retreat at Helm's Deep.

I would also argue that calling Tolkien sexist is vastly unfair. There are few women in his work, but they are drawn well and powerful in many different ways.

As for Card, I read that he had sold the movie rights for a hefty sum but doesn't get the percentage, so watching or not watching the movie won't affect him directly.

In conclusion, separating the artist from the work is not possible simply because if the artist's values are reprehensible to the audience, this will be evident in the work itself.
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