The coming apocalypse....

[JewelSong]

Spun off from the "Health Care Reforms" thread. I would really like to open a discussion of this...in part because my last exchange with my friend was quite....well, upsetting. I realise (possibly for the first time) how obsessed he has become with thinking about the "end times" and how utterly impossible it was to have ANY kind of dialogue about it without him going off the deep end. I will post a bit of our last email exchange further down.

You'd think that whoever challenges Bachmann next time could just play that "end times" clip on a loop and win by a landslide......

I have a friend (he may be an "ex-friend" by now) who believes exactly what Bachmann is selling. We have kept up an on-again, off-again email correspondence over the years and much of the time, he has been trying to convince me that the "end times" are near and that I am in "serious trouble" unless I mend my ways and change my beliefs. He often sends me clips or articles that cite various bits of scripture "proving" that the prophecies are indeed, coming to pass. Apparently the increased acceptance of homosexuality is one of these "signs" that the end is near.

Over the past few years, his tone has become more and more strident and he has become more and more frustrated with my refusal to see "how wrong" I really am about...well, everything. There is no way to refute his claims, as disagreement of what is obviously "God's plan" must come from Satan.

I am not sure what people who hold these beliefs actually get out it, except the feeling that they know something most people don't and that, when the Apocalypse arrives (which will be REALLY SOON!) all of us liberals and wrong-believers will get what's coming to us as they, the True Believers, get whisked up into heaven.

It's the exact same psychology as conspiracy theory, IMO, and arguing is exactly as effective. I don't know your friend of course, but I think a lot of these over-the-top individuals have legitimate mental health issues that go undiagnosed and untreated because they dress their delusions up in socially acceptable religious language.

I do not think my friend has "Mental health issues." I think that is too glib an explanation. He was not always this over-the-top, but has become more and more so over the years.

Below is a bit of our last email exchange. There are some telling comments in there, but I would welcome discussion on what drives/motivates people who believe in this so strongly...AND who become upset/insulted when someone else does not believe the same way.

[JewelSong]

(My emails are in regular type, my friend's are in italics.)

Tom, if you believe that the "end times" are close at hand; if you get some kind of comfort from that belief, if believing that you are more special than people who believe differently that you do makes you feel better and happier and more content about your place in the world - well...I have no problem with it. Your beliefs do not affect me in the slightest, nor do they threaten what I believe. I am very happy with my faith, my relationship with the Divine and with my place in the world. Can you say the same?


If your right I'm wasting my life. If I'm right........ Your in serious trouble!
May God bless you either way. Only he can open you're eyes.

...if I AM in "serious trouble" - well...you know, I did the best I could with what I feel to be true in my heart. God either loves me and knows me and understands me...or not. And if God DOESN'T love and understand me...what I do doesn't really matter anyway. God bless both of us!

God is not insecure. He has certain standards however. He wants people who worship him and not only sometimes. He says there is no room for multiple Gods. Further he says that his way is correct weather it lines up with our sensibilities or not. Julie, he wants us to follow him even if it doesn't seem to make sense. It's just like a loving earthly father, he knows better and he loves us so much. It breaks his heart when we don't give our total alleagence to him.


Tom, friend, try to stop worrying. Let God handle me; I'm sure God is up to the task, as ornery as I am. God made me the way I am...God knows my heart. Try to find an inner place where you can let your soul sing. God's love is boundless...because God IS love. When you let your heart and soul feel love that is when you let God in. Find some joy in every day and rejoice in the life God gave you.

God may be using me to speak to you. Did you ever think of that? That day, 20 years ago, when this half crazy man showed up at your door may prove to be the most important visitation you ever had.

(And here is where I just kind of lost patience and gave it to him....)

"God maybe using me to speak to you. Did you ever think of that?"

Only if I believed that God was NOT an infinite Being, but thought and worked in our own tiny little span of time here on earth.
Only if I believed that God, the Divine, inexpressible, incomprehensible Entity of Pure Love and Light was a small, petty, narrow kind of god...sort of like a large-sized person.
Only if I believed that God was able to be contained in a book and understood by our limited minds.
Only if I believed that God wanted me to be stressed out, depressed, upset and miserable all the time.

And I don't believe any of that. I have no reason to want to believe any of that, so your "message" to me is not attractive or compelling or anything I want to be a part of. Ever.

When was the last time you felt secure, relaxed, happy and peaceful?

I will tell you once again - I am happy and secure in my own faith, my own relationship with the Divine and my own place in this world. And I will ask you once again - can you say the same for yourself?

(and that kind of did him in...)

Thank you for sending this e-mail. You’re right, what do I know. After all I’m crazy enough to believe that it’s not good for our country to embrace a religious group that has declared war on us. That the peace loving Muslims will go along with the radicals when push comes to shove. I’m crazy enough to believe that the liberal agendas are very wrong on many levels and spell disaster for this country. I’m crazy enough to believe the Bible can be trusted, that Jesus Christ is coming soon and every knee shall bow. But you, you’re way smarter and much more sane than I am. You’re steady and sure and you see things clearly. I will pray for you but I’m done sharing anything with you. I’ll not disturb you again, you can go your way.

Tom, I just do not share your beliefs. I don't understand why this should upset you so much. But apparently, it does. As I told you...I wish you nothing but peace and happiness. I 'll stay your friend, even if you do decide not to talk to me anymore!

Peace and happiness sound good but it doesn’t make wrong right. When enough people are blind to the truth for long enough destructive things happen. This is history repeating itself. But this time, in this dangerous time we live in, it’s going to bring forth the end of the age. I know liberals think we’re on the way to a peaceful prosperous world. But they have a rude awakening coming. The very things they have embraced will turn on them.

It makes me so sad that you respond to a sincere, loving message with anger and insult. I will continue to be your friend and continue to wish you love and joy. Even if you don't want me to.

It’s not just philosophical banter anymore, there’s serious shit going down in this world. It’s time to wake up!

(And that's the last I've heard from him, although at some point, I suspect he will write again, trying to "make me see the truth.")

[yovargas]

Didn't wanna do a drive-by on this one so I wanted to say I did read this even though I have nothing to say at the moment.

[Frelga]

If your right I'm wasting my life.

And there you have it. In that light, exploring the possibility of being wrong is too painful to attempt.

[Cerin]

I feel so bad for your friend!! I can see why you're upset -- he's a nervous wreck!

What comes through strongly to me, is that he is concerned about you. Try to think of it this way:

Your friend has just heard an unsubstantiated rumor about a bad salmonella outbreak (he also has a bit of a germ phobia). He comes over to warn you about this particular brand of chicken, and he sees you at the counter opening a package of this very brand!!

'STOP! Don't eat that! You could die!'

You pooh-pooh his concern -- you have an iron constitution and no germ phobia, and you know you bought this chicken before the dates of concern. But he isn't calmed by your assurances, having an irrational certainty that the package of chicken contains your doom.


Now, do you think in this instance that you would take umbrage at his concern and conclude he is motivated by feelings of superiority because he knows something you don't know? Would you suspect that he is happy about the prospect of you growing violently ill, while he looks on in health?


One thing I learned from our brave, early days of discussion in Tol Erresea, is how deeply offensive Christianity (the traditional beliefs thereof) is to many non-Christians (I know you consider yourself a Christian, but I believe you reject many of the traditional doctrines). I think this repugnance colors people's reactions to your type of situation, causing them to posit all sorts of ugly motivation for what seems to me to be simple concern. I can understand why it is found to be annoying, but I am convinced that the aspersions are cast because of this inner revulsion that people feel to some of these tenets, and it is wrongly directed at the messenger.


Here's where you expressed your assessment of the beliefs of traditional Christianity -- that they represent a God who is:

-NOT an infinite Being, but thinks and works in our own tiny little span of time here on earth.
-a small, petty, narrow kind of god...sort of like a large-sized person.
-able to be contained in a book and understood by our limited minds.
-wanted me to be stressed out, depressed, upset and miserable all the time.

These are pretty standard assessments of those who reject these beliefs (speaking specifically here of the beliefs that we must receive Jesus Christ in order to be saved, and a different eternal destination for those who don't). What I don't get is why having this view of the beliefs themselves so colors your interpretation of your friends motivations. I can see why you would find the sharing of the beliefs offensive, since you find the beliefs offensive, but I've never understood the pique they seem to inspire.

As for why people get obsessed with the end times, it's easy to go off the deep end with any enthusiasm. I've found that some Christians gravitate to these more sensational, if you will, aspects of the Bible just the way much of society in general gravitates to the more sensational celebrity infotainment over substantial news. It's easier than working through the intricacies and mundanities of one's own life. But to me, your friend's letter reads as concern.

Maybe you could counsel him away from that right wing political nonsense, though.

[Frelga]

One thing I learned from our brave, early days of discussion in Tol Erresea, is how deeply offensive Christianity (the traditional beliefs thereof) is to many non-Christians

Speaking for myself, I don't find them offensive. I do find them inconsistent with my, equally deeply held, ideas on the nature of God, universe and everything.

And I have noticed that there is a tendency among a certain brand of Christians to interpret any disagreement as persecution.

[Cerin]

But in this case, Frelga, how do you see the friend's reaction (if you care to say)? It didn't strike me that he felt persecuted by Jewel's reaction so much as distressed at this sense of urgency he has (no doubt fueled by all this right wing end of times stuff), which she does not share.

Jewel does, in fact, come across as sure and steady (in marked contrast to her friend's anxiety), so I did not take that portion of the email as sarcasm (but perhaps it was).

My whole point, I think, is that to me, Jewel seems to be the one who feels persecuted. She tells her friend that he responded with anger and insult, whereas I see Jewel as the one who responded with anger and insult. She was, in fact, affronted by the things her friend said, and that's what I don't understand. I don't see that he is affronted by what she said, just anxious for her.

[Pearly Di]

Jewel,

I have a fundie friend with similar beliefs to your fundie friend. We often clash, as we are both strong, opinionated women. The thing is, both my friend and I are Christians and we do share a great deal of core beliefs. But she can be so dogmatic about the way she expresses them that I can get frustrated and, I confess, on occasion have lashed back. I guess because I feel threatened by that level of dogmatism. It can't cope with nuance and it won't brook any argument. If you argue with it, you get cast in the role of heretic.

I have long held that it is possible to have deep convictions and also be gracious about how you express and live those convictions ... and not behave as if absolutely everyone who disagrees with you about some or all of those beliefs is somehow against you.

[Frelga]

Cerin, I wanted to acknowledge your question. I'll respond when I have a real keyboard.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thanks for starting this thread, Jewel. An important subject. I may be able to add some thoughts at some point, but for now I thought it would be worth posting this bizarre story that I think is relevant to the topic.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/20 ... reemasons/

[JewelSong]

Thanks so much, everyone, for your thoughts so far.

I only have a few minutes before work (my internet at home is out - again! A common occurrence here in Zambia!) but I wanted to respond to some of you - especially Cerin.

One thing I learned from our brave, early days of discussion in Tol Erresea, is how deeply offensive Christianity (the traditional beliefs thereof) is to many non-Christians.... I think this repugnance colors people's reactions to your type of situation, causing them to posit all sorts of ugly motivation for what seems to me to be simple concern...I am convinced that the aspersions are cast because of this inner revulsion that people feel to some of these tenets, and it is wrongly directed at the messenger.


Here's where you expressed your assessment of the beliefs of traditional Christianity -- that they represent a God who is:

-NOT an infinite Being, but thinks and works in our own tiny little span of time here on earth.
-a small, petty, narrow kind of god...sort of like a large-sized person.
-able to be contained in a book and understood by our limited minds.
-wanted me to be stressed out, depressed, upset and miserable all the time.

These are pretty standard assessments of those who reject these beliefs...What I don't get is why having this view of the beliefs themselves so colors your interpretation of your friends motivations. I can see why you would find the sharing of the beliefs offensive, since you find the beliefs offensive, but I've never understood the pique they seem to inspire

Cerin, you must understand that this conversation with my friend has been going on for YEARS now.

I don't find his beliefs offensive per se. And I don't even find his stated motivation offensive (I liked your salmonella analogy!) What I find offensive is his continued insistence that if I truly knew and believed in God, I wouldn't think and believe the way I do. That my own faith, my own very strong relationship with the Divine, is FALSE (i.e.: SATAN is in my soul!) That I am on "the wrong side!"

My friend is perpetually stressed out and miserable. His faith does not appear to give him any comfort, any joy, any solace, any relief from the trials and tribulations of the world. (Something I said to him as well!) He cannot understand how anyone can be happy and joyful - the world is in such bad shape that if I REALLY knew what was going on, I would be as miserable as he is. The fact that I NOT simply means that I don't really know what God has in store.

That is why I asked him "When was the last time you felt secure, relaxed, happy and peaceful?"

Notice he had no answer.

And even though I have told him many times: "I am happy and secure in my own faith, my own relationship with the Divine and my own place in this world," he cannot seem to believe me...he insists that I am "working for the Devil."

THAT is what I find offensive.

And Frelga, I think you are exactly right. His statement "If you are right, I am wasting my life..." is the key. And he has said similar things in the past...right before he goes ballistic on me again.

PS: There was no sarcasm intended in any part of my conversation. I was basically strongly restating things I had said to him many, many times before.

[JewelSong]

And I have noticed that there is a tendency among a certain brand of Christians to interpret any disagreement as persecution.

Yes, my friend has repeatedly stated that Christians are "persecuted" in the US. And that this is one of the signs of the End Times. He quotes from Revelation and sends me links to speeches by like-thinkers who have cobbled together current events and linked them to vague prophecies in the Bible. He says that if I had "ears to hear" I would see that the End Times are OBVIOUSLY approaching.

PS: Sorry to be going on and on about this...but you know, it has been really upsetting to me. I just don't understand the obsession...and how someone can allow themselves to become consumed with "proving" something like this.

[Cerin]

What I find offensive is his continued insistence that if I truly knew and believed in God, I wouldn't think and believe the way I do. That my own faith, my own very strong relationship with the Divine, is FALSE (i.e.: SATAN is in my soul!) That I am on "the wrong side!"

Thanks for clarifying, Jewel. This had not come through to me in the excerpts you shared.

It's awful that your friend is living in this state of anxiety. It certainly came through clearly in the excerpt you shared. I don't quite understand if it's because he's extraordinarily compassionate and is sick with worry about all the unsaved, or if he's sick with worry for himself, and if the latter, why? But, I guess it is not for me to try and understand him. If you speak to him again about these things, I'd suggest reminding him that he's done his part in sharing his beliefs with you, and it isn't his job to convince you of them.

[Túrin Turambar]

If your right I'm wasting my life. If I'm right........ Your in serious trouble!

I've never been able to stand Pascal's Wager. For a start, it implies that there are only two options - if we are going to start giving equal weighting in probability to different religious beliefs then there are thousands around the world to choose from. All Christians, Muslims, Jews and everyone else could find themselves answering for the deeds of their life to some Shinto deity for all we know.

And besides, willing yourself to believe something because you think having that belief might benefit you in some way is madness. It implies that your power to reason is broken. If you are persuaded that something is probably true, then it makes sense to believe it. If you are not, then it doesn't. I have an issue with the thinking that seems so common today where people seem willing to believe things simply because they like the implications of them. Karma, soulmates, healing crystals, whatever. If you are personally persuaded that, based on your experience, a particular set of religious beliefs are probably true, then that makes sense. But going backwards does not.

[WampusCat]

I find that people like your friend are often terrified. They need certainty. They need clear, definite answers. And anything that weakens the structure -- especially blythe questioning -- is a threat.

I do not mean to be judgmental about this. Fright is fright, and we all have lines that we fear to cross. Your easy acceptance of paradox hits him in all the wrong places.

Personally, I think it's pointless to obsess about the end times. Everyone who lives is facing The End, and we have no way to predict when. All we can do is live each day as though no more will be given to us -- and make the days better for those who surround or will follow us.

I'm content to let the rest be mystery.

[Frelga]

Re Pascal's wager - been a while since I quoted Pratchett here, so...

Small Gods: "Upon his death, the philosopher in question found himself surrounded by a group of angry gods with clubs. The last thing he heard was 'We're going to show you how we deal with Mister Clever Dick around here...'"

[JewelSong]

It's awful that your friend is living in this state of anxiety. It certainly came through clearly in the excerpt you shared....I'd suggest reminding him that he's done his part in sharing his beliefs with you, and it isn't his job to convince you of them.

Cerin, his anxiety seems to have gotten worse over the last few years...and I didn't even share some of the worst emails.

His other obsession is finding a wife. Not partner, as he does not believe a marriage is meant to be an equal partnership, but a wife in a "Biblical model" of marriage. He has been married and divorced 4 times. Right now he is partner-less and so all his energy is focused on this apocalypse thing.

For some reason, my approval or agreement with his viewpoint is very important to him...I have no idea why. He often says that I am brilliant, but that "spiritually" I just don't understand where he is coming from.

I did tell him once that the word "spiritually" did not mean what he thought it meant. .

I do think that that he very much wants some kind of certainty...and that to him, it seems that the world is falling apart. He is very much concerned with the changing demographis of the USA and once asked me why there weren't more news stories about white Protestants once in a while.

Poor sod.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Can you tell him that physicists generally contend that the universe is indeed slowly breaking down...a future apocalypse of sorts...but that the end state (or something like an end state) of such an apocalypse will not occur for hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of years? You know, tie his concern for an apocalypse to an actual scientific line of argument, and see if that calms his fears a bit...?

Could also use the sun's demise as well, which is closer on the horizon, but still billions of years away...

Though I imagine he may not believe any of that anyway...

[JewelSong]

I think he WANTS the apocalypse. And he wants it soon. He wants Jesus to come back and put everything right, and everyone to "bow the knee" and he wants the liberals to be proven wrong and get their just desserts. He is hoping that the Second Coming will happen in our lifetime and he is looking for evidence that this is the case.

He knows he is miserable and stressed and sometimes he will admit it and say he is "working on it." He knows that he worries about everything and that scripture says that worrying never did a damn bit of good.

And yet, he cannot let go of it. Believing that the End Times are upon us seems to be what keeps him going...and to stop believing it would mean that he is "wasting his life."

*sigh*

[Passdagas the Brown]

Got it. In that case, I suppose its best to just leave him be. Or call him up once a week and say: "It seems the weather's supposed to be a bit apocalypsey this week."