Discussion about joke about Gen. Petraeus

[Voronwë the Faithful]

[Note: I split this off from the discussion about Gen. Petraeus' resignation]

L_M, to amplify Anthy's very polite comment, your snide, disparaging remark about Holly Petraeus - by all accounts, a successful professional in the federal government and a dedicated wife and mother of multiple decades who seems to be the victim in a very humiliating, public situation at the moment - is offensive, inappropriate, and disappointing.

I agree, and I was more than a little surprised to see it coming from you, L_M.

[nerdanel]

(To be clear, V quoted the first version of my post, which I then edited and expanded. But the gist is the same.)

[Lalaith]

I was going to comment on that, too, as anthy did. I had a post but deleted it. The comment rankled me. Maybe it's because I'm 40 and not young and pretty, and I'm imagining how Holly Petraeus must feel. ?? I don't know, but it didn't sit well with me. Also, as River pointed out, affairs are very often not about wanting someone prettier.

(I know Lord M did not intentionally set out to cause offense, though.)

[Alatar]

For what its worth Lord M, I took your joke as a joke. Those who choose to get offended will, as with all types of humour. I often wonder why I come here since I'm so obviously beneath the superior standards of everyone else who posts here.

[River]

Yes, the implications in LM's post were offensive but I saw the dark humor in it and giggled a little. In fact, I might have giggled more, except S was on the phone.

I haven't felt pretty in months but I know my husband isn't out running around because our marriage is about way more than that (and he thinks I'm being an idiot about the whole feeling pretty thing). Really, unless you're very close to the parties involved, it's impossible and foolish to speculate what sort of conditions left the people involved ripe for an extra-marital affair.

[Lalaith]

Well, Alatar, you should know that I rarely get offended, so one of two things is possible: I'm being extra sensitive about a subject that hits upon an insecurity, or it was something truly offensive. In this case and for me only, it may be both, though I fully admit it's probably more of the first reason.

[narya]

For what its worth Lord M, I took your joke as a joke. Those who choose to get offended will, as with all types of humour. I often wonder why I come here since I'm so obviously beneath the superior standards of everyone else who posts here.

You are definitely not below my standards.

And I hesitate to post on this subject for the same reason I hesitated to post in the political threads: it's fun to joke and pal around with a group that agrees with me, but only at the risk of hurting those who read our posts and disagree but are too uncomfortable to reply.

[yovargas]

For what its worth Lord M, I took your joke as a joke. Those who choose to get offended will, as with all types of humour. I often wonder why I come here since I'm so obviously beneath the superior standards of everyone else who posts here.

That "it's just a joke!" thing is such an enormous cop-out. Jokes are usually based on truths, or perceived truths, or they wouldn't be funny.

[anthriel]

For what its worth Lord M, I took your joke as a joke. Those who choose to get offended will, as with all types of humour. I often wonder why I come here since I'm so obviously beneath the superior standards of everyone else who posts here.

That "it's just a joke!" thing is such an enormous cop-out. Jokes are usually based on truths, or perceived truths, or they wouldn't be funny.

Well, and just to prove my soul isn't lily white, I had a similar reaction (although I don't think I joked about it) when Grant Whosis cheated on Elizabeth Hurley with some hooker in Las Vegas who was quite... ummm... NOT Elizabeth Hurley in the looks department.

My first reaction was just like Jay Leno's... WHAT was he thinking??

Of course, infidelity has lots of roots. Mrs. Petraeus may well be just as culpable as her husband in his infidelity, but not only do I not know details like that, I don't want to. This is between man and wife, at this point. They deserve whatever privacy can be afforded to sort through this.

But diggin' on that poor woman's looks in a moment when her humiliation level must be sky high... and saying that Petraeus "exercised good judgement" by choosing the more attractive woman... just seems a bit mean, to me.

I didn't comment on anyone's worthiness to be here (boy, I sure hope there isn't a worthiness test, I am so in bad trouble if that is true) and I can take a joke. I even throw a few, from time to time.

Just... it didn't seem funny. To me. <shrug>

[Túrin Turambar]

Honestly, I was responding to the 'how could he do this/what was he thinking/why would he make this poor decision?' comments that I had seen here and elsewhere on the story. The simple answer (in my opinion) is that the woman in question is more attractive than his wife. Like Dave, I think that the story of his resignation is more complicated, but the actual affair itself is quite simple, as they usually are.

I have made comments on the past on this board strongly condemnatory of infidelity in the past and have no desire to repeat them here. I have no idea how I would have acted in Petraeus' position. I am not attractive enough to attract one woman let alone two. But as none of the parties in question are reading this board I don't see why I cannot offer a blunt response to people's observations.

[nerdanel]

For what its worth Lord M, I took your joke as a joke. Those who choose to get offended will, as with all types of humour. I often wonder why I come here since I'm so obviously beneath the superior standards of everyone else who posts here.

That "it's just a joke!" thing is such an enormous cop-out. Jokes are usually based on truths, or perceived truths, or they wouldn't be funny.

Agreed, and it's the underlying perceived "truth" here that's problematic: isn't it funny (and a "sound" exercise of judgment) that the middle-aged general, not himself Adonis, would run off with the somewhat younger, athletic, more conventionally attractive woman while betraying the trust of his fugly older wife of nearly four decades? Obvs totally legit! ROTFLMAO.

Except not. It just shows a complete lack of empathy and compassion for someone (who incidentally looks perfectly fine) who has been the victim of a public humiliating betrayal, and it makes me wonder: do the people who make and laugh at these jokes really believe themselves immune from being in the same position? That - if it is legitimate to cheat on a (supposedly life) partner if a younger, more attractive model comes along - that a current or future partner of theirs would never make that choice? If it happened, would the people who find this amusing seriously be okay with the rest of us snickering and saying, "Well, she totally made the obvious choice: her paramour is way hotter than the husband! Hilarious! Lolz."

[nerdanel]

The simple answer (in my opinion) is that the woman in question is more attractive than his wife. Like Dave, I think that the story of his resignation is more complicated, but the actual affair itself is quite simple, as they usually are.

Really? Everyone I've come across who had an affair after a relationship of many years usually has had a great deal to say about the incredibly complicated factors in the starting relationship that led to the infidelity. I can't think of a single person whose summary was, "Yeah, it was simple. She or he was hotter, so I said screw it to my marriage of many years and threw all career consequences to the wind." (Sure, self-reporting can be inaccurate, but most people can credibly pinpoint some pretty specific, complicated problems in the initial relationship that led to the affair.)

[Alatar]

Really it getting into this except to say that as usual a pretty common occurrence gets overanalysed out of existence. Guys and Gals have affairs, and sometimes there's humour in that. Sometimes there's humour in getting hit by a truck too. Not for the guy who got hit, and not for the guy in the truck. But we're human, we laugh at inappropriate things. When I stop doing that, somebody, please shoot me!

[Nin]

I entirely, fully and completely agree with Alatar, as well on the joke issue (and I am not only neither young nor pretty, but an adultery woman, so I could be offende on all issues!), as on the level of posting issue (I restrain myself in most of my posts because I fear to "offend" someone) as on the question weather an extra-marital affair is a reason for someone to resign.

I am very suspicious towards the arguments of morality: for long centuries, for a ruler or a monarch, it was suspicious not to have at least one mistress, more often several. On the argument of "lack of morality", homosexuality was suspicious at the best, a clause for exclusion normally. A woman like me - adultery, divorced - could not have stayed a teacher - based on her poor morality... It is a judgement which is too tedious and hazardous.

The French president François Mitterand had a mistress for years and a child by her who even got state protection, even though officially, she was never mentionned. His wife perfectly knew about it, by the way. It was not his first, last or only affair, but the longest. He was an excellent president, modernising the country and giving an impact on France which has by far outlasted his actively political years. I think Bill Clinton was an excellent president. But probably I think so based on my own poor morality.

I also do think that they needed the resignation for some other reason and found one which they could put forward.

[yovargas]

Really it getting into this except to say that as usual a pretty common occurrence gets overanalysed out of existence. Guys and Gals have affairs, and sometimes there's humour in that. Sometimes there's humour in getting hit by a truck too. Not for the guy who got hit, and not for the guy in the truck. But we're human, we laugh at inappropriate things. When I stop doing that, somebody, please shoot me!

You can laugh if you wanna laugh - I personally wasn't actually bothered by LM's comment - but don't pretend and hide behind the "it's just a joke!" defense as if jokes don't ever mean anything. If you wanna throw out jokes, you can't then get mad if people ask you to think about what a joke means.

[anthriel]

Well, since I seemed to have started all this, I apologize to any who were offended because someone was offended.

Although I wasn't offended as much as surprised; Lord M has, as he said, been pretty strong in his support of marital loyalty elsewhere. It just seemed odd, and more inappropriate because of my surprise at the source, if that makes any sense. Thank you for explaining your thoughts, Lord M, I for one appreciate that.

And while I can appreciate a joke, and would love people here to feel free enough to express their senses of humor, I personally have WAY too much empathy for people in general to laff along with y'all this time.

I'll never meet Mrs. Petraeus, and I still haven't seen a picture of her. I know she'll never see the comments on this board, thank God. I appreciate that Lord M was trying to be funny, and having an affair with a better-looking partner is the time-tested right of men in powerful places (and men and women everywhere in every strata, actually). It just, as a joke, wasn't at all funny to me. All I could think was wow, that sure isn't funny. Is that okay? Or is the not okay part that I commented on it, here?


As far as people having to curtail their posting style; well, I can empathize. But here's something to consider; in asking OTHER people to not share what they are feeling about a certain post, asking other people to curtail their reactions to guard against someone with a different humor point feeling offended that someone got offended, aren't you then placing pressure on other people to edit their written thoughts, too?

Can't we just politely discuss such things, here?



Look, one of the reasons I so seldomly post in Lasto is that I am concerned... afraid, even... that my thoughts will offend someone. I know I am not a mainstream thinker for this board!

But, in the painful process of back and forth, I have LEARNED something here. Months ago I made a joke here on this board about Michelle Obama potentially intimidating her husband which was shot down, and I AM GLAD. That wasn't a kind thing to say, nor even particularly a true one.

It was playing into the stereotype of the strong man being henpecked at home, I think. Also a long-standing stereotype, by the way, and there are probably lots of historical figures in this same situation. Some of them may have been presidents. Doesn't make joking about it right, though, and it doesn't make it funny.

You guys helped me see that, and I am grateful. More than a little embarrassed, actually, but grateful, indeed.



Obviously, my thoughts about LM's joke, which I really did think appropriate to share, offended Alatar and perhaps Nin, as well. Not only that I felt the joke was in poor taste (sorry, Lord M, you know how much I respect you, but I really did feel that), but that I had the temerity to post about it.

I'm not sure where my boldness of late has come from. It is perhaps short-lived. Must be the utter exhaustion and stress of my crazy upside-down life at the moment.

I'll let it go next time for the peace of the board.

[Alatar]

I'm not offended. Just baffled. If we thought through every comment that can lead to a humourous posting and follow it back to see if someone somewhere would be offended, there would be no humour left in the world. And thats not a world I care to live it, or a board I want to post on.

Yov, just cause somethings is true doesn't mean its not funny. Just cause something is flase doesn't mean its not funny. I refuse, and I'll repeat in caps, FLATLY REFUSE, to self censor every quip I may make in case it may offend someone. And if someone chooses to call me on my joke, so be it, but I fully reserve the right to tell that person to get a grip.

[Teremia]

Before I saw this thread, I was already pretty amazed by the hundreds of comments on the news site I went to to read about Petraeus's resignation. All those people saying Petraeus's wife should just have learned how to use some lipstick!

!!!

She's a woman with a successful, high-powered career being dismissed out of hand because she's not sexy enough.

That just depresses the heck out of me, somehow. I appreciate inappropriate humor as much as the next kid, really I do. (I've been known to laugh at Helen Keller jokes!) If I don't laugh at jokes about Mrs. Petraeus, it's just because they hit a bit close to home.

Not that I'm saying everyone should say only nice things about middle-aged women!!!

I'm just eagerly waiting for the better world to kick in where lipstick doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, yeah: long wait.

Meanwhile, please keep controversial opinions and salty comments coming, as far as I'm concerned. I'll look away when I can't handle it. Or yelp.

[Primula Baggins]

Alatar, L_M made his joke and got a response. You sound as if you're saying humor should be privileged above response—that it isn't OK to have and express an honest reaction to something meant as a joke; people should just nod and laugh or else shut up.

And, nobody has asked you to self censor.

[yovargas]

You sound as if you're saying humor should be privileged above response—that it isn't OK to have and express an honest reaction to something meant as a joke; people should just nod and laugh or else shut up.

Privileged above response - that's a great way to describe why the "it's just a joke!" idea bothers me so much. As if jokes were just random strings of meaningless words that auto-trigger laughs. They're not. Some jokes that are "just" jokes can be cruel or demeaning or mean-spirited or otherwise ugly. That something is intended for a laugh doesn't magically make cruel or ugly things not cruel or ugly. Yes, sometimes I laugh at cruel or ugly things too. But I don't do it while pretending that it's something other than what it is, nor while acting surprised that, gee whiz, not everybody's always gonna find such things funny.