Discussion about joke about Gen. Petraeus

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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

Alatar wrote:You are entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to tell you your opinion sucks. See how that works?
"I'm upset" is not an opinion.

I guess your vehemence has me puzzled, too...and causes me to wonder if something else is going on.
I suspect it's mostly built-up resentment at this general kind of dismissive attitude, which is usually used as an excuse for crummy behavior (as it has been once again here). But it's also about the certainty that telling people that they should stop being "so thin skinned" is pretty specifically hurtful to some people on this board, who's sensitivity and emotional openness - both traits I envy and admire but which are too often dismissed as negative traits, as Al is doing - sometimes keeps them from being more active on the boards.
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Post by anthriel »

Lord M, I think you are pretty much off the hook for that original comment... most of this discussion is not about that anymore, specifically. :) I think most of this thread has been about how to be tolerant of other people's opinions, while still having the chance to have one's own opinion heard.

Heard and not belittled, nor personally berated (in a generalized fashion) for how you feel. Just heard. No one has to necessarily agree. Not agreeing is the point at which learning occurs. But dismissing people's thoughts and feelings out of hand just puts a full stop on the discussion, really.

Alatar, I agree that sometimes political correctness is a poisonous influence, and stifles humor. Sometimes we do need to get over ourselves, and learning to laugh at oneself is a true gift.

However, I don't think the responses here were motivated by political correctness, but rather by an honest reaction to the premise of the joke, which seemed unfair to some, and reinforced a stereotype that many people disagree with. You pointed out that the racist comment about the poor Mexican immigrants was not appropriate. Were you being politically correct when you wrote that, or is that honestly how you feel?
Alatar wrote: I personally have learned a lot from this thread, even if I still disagree with the more polar opposite viewpoints.
Me, too. But I always do, when I listen to you guys.


And I officially nominate Wampus as Princess of the Universe. :love: Well written, friend.
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Post by JewelSong »

yovargas wrote: "I'm upset" is not an opinion.
No, but this is:
....Telling other people repeatedly to stop being so like themselves and more like your wonderful self is pretty damn disrespectful, as I see it.
And so is this:
I'd say you're being an ass.
And they are both personally insulting to Alatar. So if he doesn't think he is being an ass, or that he is presenting himself as disrespectful, or describing himself as more wonderful that anyone else...well, he gets to disagree with you.
JewelSong wrote:I guess your vehemence has me puzzled, too....
I suspect it's mostly built-up resentment at this general kind of dismissive attitude, which is usually used as an excuse for crummy behavior (as it has been once again here)
.

I have not seen any "crummy behavior" here.
But it's also about the certainty that telling people that they should stop being "so thin skinned" is pretty specifically hurtful to some people on this board...[and] keeps them from being more active on the boards.
The certainty? Whose certainty? Yours? So, your opinion, right?

I am not so sure that Alatar's comments or threads like this one (again, in LASTO) keep anyone from being more active on the boards. People who don't like conflict stay out of Lasto. This is the forum for dialog and conflicting opinions, not the nicey-nice, fuzzy kittens, cute puppies forum.

Srsly.
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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

Yeah, I suppose "one shouldn't be totally dismissive and condescending towards other people's feelings" is just an opinion. Seemed like a pretty reasonable opinion to me. Ah well.
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Post by Alatar »

Thanks guys. For what its worth, my last post was a bit snotty and out of order. However, I don't think the previous ones were. My response to original post was pretty unremarkable I thought. Subsequent posts where I was arguing my opinion on PC and jokes in general may have got more strident, but I never personally attacked anyone for their opinion as you have attacked mine.

Yov, its probably best we either drop this or take it to the personal disputes forum, cause I certainly feel this has become a personal attack on me rather than a discussion of the topic. Note, I'm not crying off or refusing to engage, just stating that if the above is to be an indication of your future posting, this is not the place for it.
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Post by JewelSong »

yovargas wrote:Yeah, I suppose "one shouldn't be totally dismissive and condescending towards other people's feelings" is just an opinion. Seemed like a pretty reasonable opinion to me.
It is pretty reasonable. But in MY opinion, Alatar was not "totally dismissive and condescending" to you or anyone else. He was forthright, upfront and stating his position.

Agree that any further bru-ha-ha between Alatar and yovargas should be taken to the personal disputes forum.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

To be clear, telling someone that their opinion "sucks" is not acceptable here. Telling them you disagree is of course fine, and better if you explain why, but do it respectfully.
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Post by Frelga »

Ugh, this is probably the point where I should let it be, especially since I am not personally upset by any of it. But you know what, Jewel, you don't get to tell yov to shut up. I think the world of you, but... well, you don't.

I can see different sides here, especially since I have had my comments taken the way I had not intended in the past. But I do have to say I side with yov most strongly. "This comment should not be censored on this site" is one thing. "I deny your right to be upset by this comment" is quite another.
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Post by Alatar »

How about "I think you should not take this personally, and here's why"?
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Alatar wrote:How about "I think you should not take this personally, and here's why"?
Generally speaking, I think that is okay, as long as it is not done in a way that, as Frelga put it, implies "I deny your right to be upset by this comment."
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Post by JewelSong »

Frelga wrote: But you know what, Jewel, you don't get to tell yov to shut up. I think the world of you, but... well, you don't. .
I didn't think that was what I was saying. At all. I admit to being frustrated with yov's last few posts in this thread. But as far as I can tell, I wasn't telling him to "shut up."

To clarify, what I wanted to tell yov was to expect dissension in the Lasto forum. People who dislike conflict and dissent don't post in Lasto. And yes, it requires a thicker skin than posting in Bag End, because the tone and topics of the discussions tend to be sharper.

Alatar and yov seemed to be getting into some sort of personal give-and-take which is why I mentioned taking it to the disputes forum...as Alatar had already suggested! This was not meant to tell yov to "shut up" either.
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Post by Maria »

*yawn*
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Post by Alatar »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Alatar wrote:How about "I think you should not take this personally, and here's why"?
Generally speaking, I think that is okay, as long as it is not done in a way that, as Frelga put it, implies "I deny your right to be upset by this comment."
Ok, and I know I'm pushing the line here, but I want to know where that line is.

What about the following:

"I think its silly for you to take this personally, and here's why"?
"I think its crazy for you take this personally, and here's why"?
"Why are you taking this so personally?"

None of those deny someone's right to be upset, yet state an opinion that I think its foolish to be upset by what is upsetting you. Now, I think thats a perfectly valid thing to say. Yov seems to be suggesting that I don't get to say "I think its silly to let that upset you".
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Post by Alatar »

:rofl:

I submit that Maria's post is the most offensive. Tell me I'm right, tell me I'm wrong, but don't tell me I'm boring! :)
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Post by Dave_LF »

This whole thread is very boring; take that! It's my only contribution. :)
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Post by Maria »

;)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Alatar wrote:
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Alatar wrote:How about "I think you should not take this personally, and here's why"?
Generally speaking, I think that is okay, as long as it is not done in a way that, as Frelga put it, implies "I deny your right to be upset by this comment."
Ok, and I know I'm pushing the line here, but I want to know where that line is.

What about the following:

"I think its silly for you to take this personally, and here's why"?
"I think its crazy for you take this personally, and here's why"?
"Why are you taking this so personally?"

None of those deny someone's right to be upset, yet state an opinion that I think its foolish to be upset by what is upsetting you. Now, I think thats a perfectly valid thing to say. Yov seems to be suggesting that I don't get to say "I think its silly to let that upset you".
The last of those three would likely be okay in most cases. The first two, less so. I'm not necessarily saying that they would necessarily be considered editable or worthy of some of other administrative action. That would need to be considered on a case by case basis, and perhaps discussed further by the Marshals. I will say that none of the four of us have suggested editing anything in this thread or taking any other administrative action (other than splitting it off from the original thread).
My personal preference, however, is that I would rather see "I don't understand why you are upset by this, can you try to explain it to me" than "I think it is silly to let that upset you." On the other hand, I suppose if you are just not interested in understanding why someone is upset by something, there is no really reason to ask.
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Post by JewelSong »

I don't think this thread is boring.

Amusing, maybe. ;)
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Post by WampusCat »

Alatar wrote:
Ok, and I know I'm pushing the line here, but I want to know where that line is.

What about the following:

"I think its silly for you to take this personally, and here's why"?
"I think its crazy for you take this personally, and here's why"?
"Why are you taking this so personally?"

None of those deny someone's right to be upset, yet state an opinion that I think its foolish to be upset by what is upsetting you. Now, I think thats a perfectly valid thing to say. Yov seems to be suggesting that I don't get to say "I think its silly to let that upset you".
I would say that only the third option is potentially helpful, because it is a request for additional information and clarification. The first two are clear personal attacks because they say, in effect, "you are silly/crazy for having that reaction." And yes, they imply that the other person has no valid reason to feel that way.

A different way to put it would be: "I find it hard to understand how this could be seen as offensive. It's not the sort of comment that offends me." That takes the personal sting out of your reply without "buckling."

There are ways to discuss even touchy matters without demeaning one another in the process.


ETA: cross-posted with Voronwë and Jewel.
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Post by nerdanel »

I agree with Wampus that only the final option would be constructive. If I was on the receiving end of a "I think it's silly/crazy for you to take this personally," it definitely would seem like a personal jab and an attempt to invalidate my feelings. If you're going to call the other person's feelings silly or crazy, you are coming very close to denying their right to be upset. Now, just like you (Alatar) are a big boy, I'm a big girl and can deal with it ... but those proposed comments wouldn't be the catalyst for any sort of constructive exchange.
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