Correlation between political views and religiousness?

[anthriel]

I'm not sure I read Folca's words in quite that way. It reads to me as if Folca is describing that in his experience, those who are anti-religion tend to also be liberals. I think that is quite different than "what it is about "liberalism" that is somehow fundamentally destructive of religion". He did write "cripple" religion, but in reading his further clarifications, I feel we are perhaps misinterpreting what he was trying to say.

Perhaps so, which is one reason why I wanted to try to continue the discussion without continuing to derail the same sex marriage thread. But if the point is not that there is some kind of connection between liberalism and "crippling religion" than I'm not sure what the point is. Hence my continued hope for some further clarification.

Well, I think I see what he's trying to say, but I'm more conservative here than most. Perhaps that bit of common ground helps. I will bow out (Eeek! Religious discussions! NO!!) and let Folca try to further clarify his thoughts, if he so desires.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Nah, nah, nah, I'm not letting you get away so easily. Post what you think, red-haired lady. Folca can always either agree or disagree.

[Primula Baggins]

Sometimes viewing something from a second angle makes it a lot easier to grasp. Hint, hint.

[nerdanel]

To the extent there is a correlation between non-religious people who are suspicious of religion and liberalism, I suspect it is for this reason: those who are most vocally religious in the political realm tend to oppose many social causes that are important to many social liberals, including same-sex marriage and gay rights, contraceptive and abortion rights, teaching students only scientifically supported theories in science classes, separating church and state (no religious displays or endorsements by government, no public prayer or school prayer, etc.), teaching adolescent students about safer sexual practices, and conducting stem cell research. Those religious conservatives who are opposed to these positive social developments tend to attribute their opposition to their religion, and they are not vocally opposed by religious liberals who attribute their social views to their religion. It may be that religious liberals do not have the numbers or funding sufficient to promulgate their message adequately.

Secular liberals support the above positions for rational, objective reasons that do not have a supernatural, faith-based component. It can thus be very easy for such liberals to get frustrated with their social agenda is opposed on faith-based (i.e. non-reason-based) grounds with which it is not really possible to engage in a secular, reasoned way - and it can be easy to attribute that frustration to the negative effects of religion. I think that this (well-justified) frustration on the part of secular liberals can only be addressed if religious liberals begin to oppose religious conservatives in the political realm in sufficient numbers to make a difference. If this happens, then religion will not appear only to be on one side of each social movement - the side that is opposed to the stances that secular liberals hold dear.

[Folca]

Voronwë- I am not saying there is a defined political agenda that is strictly liberal that desires to eliminate religion, just that the only people I have encountered who do could never be mistaken for conservatives based on the rest of thier agenda.

I don't consider liberalism fundamentally destructive to religion.

And, I am happy to engage. I can't learn if I only participate in conversations with myself! And, there is nothing wrong with learning where others come from in their beliefs.

Wampus- The company we keep and where we live has alot of bearing in our perceptions of the world, I believe. I was raised as a conservative Christian, and for the first twenty five years I engaged fully in that organization. All but one of my family besides myself are still practiciing. One of them is a paid religion instructor in the seminary program. So I am still very much connected to the organization by association through family, I just do not participate.

Anthriel- I think my words were taken out of context as well, but not out of malice. It could be poor writing or just the normal filtering we all do when we communicate. You just said it before I did! But thanks for that.

Now for the topic:

I perrsonally do believe there is a correlation between political views and religion. In very general terms, it appears that people raised with religion remain in that sect. However, people who choose to actively participate in religion will verify or seek a sect that mirrors their value system. So if an individual was raised in a sect but does not fully adopt the value system in that sect but still desires to actively participate in religion, they will search for a sect that does mirror their value system. And our value systems certainly correlate to our political stances, in my opinion.

Even before I understood religion, since age six, I have only envisioned myself in one of two careers: the military or law enforcement. It wasn't until I was age twenty-six I realized why I always felt an outsider to the rest of my congregation: My value system diverged with Christianity at some very fundamental levels and I was too ambivilant about sujects like same sex relationships. I left of my own accord because I didn't desire to sow discord in the congregation.

But the bulk of my value system was established in the context of conservative Christianity, and aside from the few fundamental differences, it remains the primary source. So my past religion still affects my political filter. I vote conservative because of those values.

[axordil]

In very general terms, it appears that people raised with religion remain in that sect. However, people who choose to actively participate in religion will verify or seek a sect that mirrors their value system. So if an individual was raised in a sect but does not fully adopt the value system in that sect but still desires to actively participate in religion, they will search for a sect that does mirror their value system. And our value systems certainly correlate to our political stances, in my opinion.

I think this is generally accurate as well, though obviously not all the time. If you are picking, you pick the one you fit in best with.

[Folca]

Nerdanel- You do a better job of getting to my point, and synthesizing it into a plan of action. And I think you displayed the dynamic between the groups well. It lit a small bulb in my brain.

Axordil- That is basically what I think. A concious choice of a religion applies the birds of a feather flock together process. I just attribute that selection process to the affirmation of the value system the individual uses to move through life.

I don't choose to participate in any religion, instead finding inspiration through works like "Lord of the Rings" because it is the best literature I have found that affirms most of my value system. And it took watching the movie "Fellowship of the Ring" to provoke me into reading it.