Egypt's new era
- Impenitent
- Throw me a rope.
- Posts: 7261
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:13 am
- Location: Deep in Oz
Egypt's new era
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4221310,00.html
Egypt's new parliament is considering a law to allow husbands to have sex with dead wife up to six hours after death.
This is supposedly an "Islamist"-led initiative, but my understanding is that Islam, just like the other monotheist religions, frowns on necrophilia.
?
Egypt's new parliament is considering a law to allow husbands to have sex with dead wife up to six hours after death.
This is supposedly an "Islamist"-led initiative, but my understanding is that Islam, just like the other monotheist religions, frowns on necrophilia.
?
Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.
From the article:
Umm...I have no idea what to say to that. Does this also mean that widows and widowers can't remarry?Yet, this was not the first time Egyptians caught wind of the "Farewell Intercourse" law. The law was first introduced in a fatwa (Islamic law) issued by a Moroccan cleric last year. Zamzami Abdul Bari said marriage remains valid even after death. He also said that women have the right to have sex with their dead husbands.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
- Impenitent
- Throw me a rope.
- Posts: 7261
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:13 am
- Location: Deep in Oz
-
- This is Rome
- Posts: 5963
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:48 pm
- Location: Concrete Jungle by the Lagoon
While I find the thought of necrophilia to be viscerally repugnant, my feeling is this: there are enough atrocities being committed against the living. Those atrocities (IMO) - including the ones in Egypt - by far outweigh anything that could be done to a non-sentient dead body. I hope that this red herring doesn't distract people from focusing on the poor behavior that Egyptian men are permitted to inflict on live women.
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
- Impenitent
- Throw me a rope.
- Posts: 7261
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:13 am
- Location: Deep in Oz
The point, Nel, is that the misogyny would now legally extend beyond death. It is yet another symbol of the devaluing of women in that society.
Moreover, it is a VERY troubling sign of the direction in which Egypt's government appears to be heading. This is not an Arab Spring (not in Egypt); more a return to darkest days of winter.
Moreover, it is a VERY troubling sign of the direction in which Egypt's government appears to be heading. This is not an Arab Spring (not in Egypt); more a return to darkest days of winter.
Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46171
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
- Impenitent
- Throw me a rope.
- Posts: 7261
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:13 am
- Location: Deep in Oz
It is symptomatic of the swing towards repression, marginalisation and devaluation of women.
Another article:
http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2 ... 10198.html
Other laws being considered, all for alleged religious reinterpretation:
Lowering the marriageable age for girls to 14
Overturning the law that allows a woman to obtain a divorce without obstruction from her husband
Legislations that will strip women of their rights to education and employment.
Most of these "religious" interpretations have been rejected by modern Islamic law. These stripped to the bone interpretations of Sharia law ignore centuries of religious commentary which, like the Talmud, makes the law.
Including this off-the-wall position on necrophilia.
Another article:
http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2 ... 10198.html
Other laws being considered, all for alleged religious reinterpretation:
Lowering the marriageable age for girls to 14
Overturning the law that allows a woman to obtain a divorce without obstruction from her husband
Legislations that will strip women of their rights to education and employment.
Most of these "religious" interpretations have been rejected by modern Islamic law. These stripped to the bone interpretations of Sharia law ignore centuries of religious commentary which, like the Talmud, makes the law.
Including this off-the-wall position on necrophilia.
Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.
- JewelSong
- Just Keep Singin'
- Posts: 4660
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:35 am
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
I like how they say that this law also applies to women - ie: that wome are also allowed to have sex with their dead husbands, if they want.
But it seems to me that there might be a real logistical problem with this.
But it seems to me that there might be a real logistical problem with this.
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame
I'm with you, Impy.Impenitent wrote:It is symptomatic of the swing towards repression, marginalisation and devaluation of women.
Other laws being considered, all for alleged religious reinterpretation:
Lowering the marriageable age for girls to 14
Overturning the law that allows a woman to obtain a divorce without obstruction from her husband
Legislations that will strip women of their rights to education and employment.
Most of these "religious" interpretations have been rejected by modern Islamic law. These stripped to the bone interpretations of Sharia law ignore centuries of religious commentary which, like the Talmud, makes the law.
There is so much CRAP out there directed towards women.
No, this isn't news to me. But I will never stop being angry about it.
"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... "
Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
Avatar by goldlighticons on Live Journal
Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
Avatar by goldlighticons on Live Journal
- axordil
- Pleasantly Twisted
- Posts: 8999
- Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:35 pm
- Location: Black Creek Bottoms
- Contact:
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com ... ctd-3.html
The sourcing of the story is not as solid as might be wished.
The sourcing of the story is not as solid as might be wished.
-
- This is Rome
- Posts: 5963
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:48 pm
- Location: Concrete Jungle by the Lagoon
With respect, I don't believe that anything extends beyond death, certainly not this-worldly treatment. I am concerned with the rights of the born and living, not with the treatment of bodies that are no longer people and will disintegrate slowly or be burned to ashes.Impenitent wrote:The point, Nel, is that the misogyny would now legally extend beyond death. It is yet another symbol of the devaluing of women in that society.
I agree with you that there are serious problems with the devaluing of women in Egyptian society. Indeed, I refuse to recognize or celebrate any "Arab Spring" in Egypt or in other countries where women are not treated with decency and equality. And perhaps in a very marginal way, this proposed bill (were it real, as Ax's link suggests it is not) would provide some "background color" about the unequal treatment of women. But until we have rectified every problem out there with the treatment of real, live women, I really don't care what happens to their/our dead bodies, my future dead body included.
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
- Túrin Turambar
- Posts: 6153
- Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:37 am
- Location: Melbourne, Victoria
It is possible to be skeptical of this particular story but still concerned about the Islamist tendencies of Egypt's new government. Obviously women's rights will be one major issue, but there are others as well.Dave_LF wrote:Wouldn't surprise me. Sounds like standard propaganda (those people do gross things and they like it!)
It comes back to the old dilemma the west has always faced in the region - do we back authoritarian regimes if they align with our interests and values, do we always back democratic processes even if we don't like the outcome, or do we do nothing and deal with whatever happens as we need to?
I admit that I had high hopes for Egypt's western-educated army officers and apparently liberal-minded urban middle class in Cairo. But the situation now seems to be either that we have a democratic Islamist government backed by the rest of the country, or another Mubarak regime. My hopes for the spread of western values in Egypt are not all that good - Islamism seems much stronger than liberal democracy in the world right now.
- Ghân-buri-Ghân
- Posts: 602
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:31 pm
- Location: Evading prying eyes
Simple answers. The West never backs real democracies, because for starters, the West is not democratic, and to follow, any democratic impulses will be in opposition to the western pseudo-democracy which is "corpocracy".Lord_Morningstar wrote:It is possible to be skeptical of this particular story but still concerned about the Islamist tendencies of Egypt's new government. Obviously women's rights will be one major issue, but there are others as well.Dave_LF wrote:Wouldn't surprise me. Sounds like standard propaganda (those people do gross things and they like it!)
It comes back to the old dilemma the west has always faced in the region - do we back authoritarian regimes if they align with our interests and values, do we always back democratic processes even if we don't like the outcome, or do we do nothing and deal with whatever happens as we need to?
I admit that I had high hopes for Egypt's western-educated army officers and apparently liberal-minded urban middle class in Cairo. But the situation now seems to be either that we have a democratic Islamist government backed by the rest of the country, or another Mubarak regime. My hopes for the spread of western values in Egypt are not all that good - Islamism seems much stronger than liberal democracy in the world right now.
And I am close to shocked that anyone could have high expectations from western-educated army officers. Idi Amin was a graduate of Sandhurst... and that's just for starters!
It would be tiresome for me to go into repetitive detail, so I'll simply make the statement: there is a propaganda assault against Islam, because Islam (and Islamism) is outside Western hegemony. 'Nuff said.
tenebris lux
- Impenitent
- Throw me a rope.
- Posts: 7261
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:13 am
- Location: Deep in Oz
GBG, even if one accepts the existence of a propaganda assault against Islamism, it would not mean that all criticism of Islamist political developments is propaganda.
The proposed legislative assault on (hard won and recent) women's rights in Egypt is real.
LM, I had few expectations and many apprehensions of the consequences of the popular revolution in Egypt; perhaps the difference between us is that I've been jaded by my years while you have the optimism of youth (and long may you hold to it!)
Nel, while I agree that nothing extends beyond death (other than taxes), I believe that the way a society treats its dead is indicative of its attitude to the living. Therefore, while the deceased women are unaffected by the treatment of their physical remains, society certainly is.
The proposed legislative assault on (hard won and recent) women's rights in Egypt is real.
LM, I had few expectations and many apprehensions of the consequences of the popular revolution in Egypt; perhaps the difference between us is that I've been jaded by my years while you have the optimism of youth (and long may you hold to it!)
Nel, while I agree that nothing extends beyond death (other than taxes), I believe that the way a society treats its dead is indicative of its attitude to the living. Therefore, while the deceased women are unaffected by the treatment of their physical remains, society certainly is.
Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.
- Ghân-buri-Ghân
- Posts: 602
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:31 pm
- Location: Evading prying eyes
Agreed. And I wonder; do you accept there is a propaganda assault against Islam?Impenitent wrote:GBG, even if one accepts the existence of a propaganda assault against Islamism, it would not mean that all criticism of Islamist political developments is propaganda.
How real is the specific example cited? It appears manna from heaven for the Islamophobes; legislation for necrophilia! But... is it true? And if not... what is the rationale behind this proffered news story? Not propaganda?Impenitent wrote:The proposed legislative assault on (hard won and recent) women's rights in Egypt is real.
I, too, had few expectations of this stymied revolution, because the revolution is yet to happen. Mubarak, the "army leader", is gone, but the army he led is still in power...Impenitent wrote:LM, I had few expectations and many apprehensions of the consequences of the popular revolution in Egypt; perhaps the difference between us is that I've been jaded by my years while you have the optimism of youth (and long may you hold to it!)
Why? The cult of the dead, in which the remains of the deceased are venerated, is somewhat perverse. A society that treats its dead (eg with incredibly expensive funerals) whilst accepting the absolute impoverishment of the living, is sick, is it not? The dead are gone. No?Impenitent wrote:Nel, while I agree that nothing extends beyond death (other than taxes), I believe that the way a society treats its dead is indicative of its attitude to the living. Therefore, while the deceased women are unaffected by the treatment of their physical remains, society certainly is.
tenebris lux
- Impenitent
- Throw me a rope.
- Posts: 7261
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:13 am
- Location: Deep in Oz
In some quarters - and the more serious commentators differentiate between Islam and the more extreme, deconstructed form which is Islamism.Ghân-buri-Ghân wrote:Agreed. And I wonder; do you accept there is a propaganda assault against Islam?Impenitent wrote:GBG, even if one accepts the existence of a propaganda assault against Islamism, it would not mean that all criticism of Islamist political developments is propaganda.
I was referring to threats against women's education and employment rights, access to divorce, 'modesty' proposals. Don't get stuck on the extreme for the purposes of sensationalising your claims.Ghân-buri-Ghân wrote:How real is the specific example cited? It appears manna from heaven for the Islamophobes; legislation for necrophilia! But... is it true? And if not... what is the rationale behind this proffered news story? Not propaganda?Impenitent wrote:The proposed legislative assault on (hard won and recent) women's rights in Egypt is real.
Treating physical remains with respect is not the same as establishing a cult.Ghân-buri-Ghân wrote:Why? The cult of the dead, in which the remains of the deceased are venerated, is somewhat perverse. A society that treats its dead (eg with incredibly expensive funerals) whilst accepting the absolute impoverishment of the living, is sick, is it not? The dead are gone. No?Impenitent wrote:Nel, while I agree that nothing extends beyond death (other than taxes), I believe that the way a society treats its dead is indicative of its attitude to the living. Therefore, while the deceased women are unaffected by the treatment of their physical remains, society certainly is.
This is the last response I will make to this GBG.
Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.
- Ghân-buri-Ghân
- Posts: 602
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:31 pm
- Location: Evading prying eyes
Or perhaps the more "politicized" have created this difference for the purpose of justifying their assaults? It is a sop to the prejudiced to give them the soubriquet "serious", perhaps...Impenitent wrote:In some quarters - and the more serious commentators differentiate between Islam and the more extreme, deconstructed form which is Islamism.Ghân-buri-Ghân wrote:Agreed. And I wonder; do you accept there is a propaganda assault against Islam?Impenitent wrote:GBG, even if one accepts the existence of a propaganda assault against Islamism, it would not mean that all criticism of Islamist political developments is propaganda.
Did you not introduce this whole topic with "sensationalist claims"? Pots and kettles perhaps...Impenitent wrote:I was referring to threats against women's education and employment rights, access to divorce, 'modesty' proposals. Don't get stuck on the extreme for the purposes of sensationalising your claims.Ghân-buri-Ghân wrote:How real is the specific example cited? It appears manna from heaven for the Islamophobes; legislation for necrophilia! But... is it true? And if not... what is the rationale behind this proffered news story? Not propaganda?Impenitent wrote:The proposed legislative assault on (hard won and recent) women's rights in Egypt is real.
Fulminating over the (alleged) treatment of the dead must be driven by some agenda. I do wonder what it is. Unfortunately, you have decided to curtail your responses, so it seems I will never know...Impenitent wrote:Treating physical remains with respect is not the same as establishing a cult.Ghân-buri-Ghân wrote:Why? The cult of the dead, in which the remains of the deceased are venerated, is somewhat perverse. A society that treats its dead (eg with incredibly expensive funerals) whilst accepting the absolute impoverishment of the living, is sick, is it not? The dead are gone. No?Impenitent wrote:Nel, while I agree that nothing extends beyond death (other than taxes), I believe that the way a society treats its dead is indicative of its attitude to the living. Therefore, while the deceased women are unaffected by the treatment of their physical remains, society certainly is.
This is the last response I will make to this GBG.
tenebris lux