Education

[anthriel]

Okay, so I haven't started a new thread in a while, especially not in mean ol' Lasto. I'm going to try to do this right!

I hope this thread can be about education in general, but I do have a direct question I would like to ask first.

I have heard, from many people (not just here! not just in another thread!) that women/girls in general have a hard time in math. That they are not encouraged in math, that the systems of schooling are designed in such a way that discourages girls (perhaps not deliberately), in particular, from enjoying math and flexing their mathematical muscles.

I have read in another thread here (I'm sorry, I'm not sure if it is acceptable to quote it into another thread, I will apologize later if I upset someone) that girls were actually pulled aside and told not to pursue their interest in math, which is shocking to the bone, and would definitely have an effect on anyone it was said to.

But, barring such direct behavior, what are the other deterrents on a girl's interests and pursuit of the maths?

Obviously, I am asking because I myself never really felt any obstruction personally, and math class was definitely one of my most cherished times of the day for me (yes, I am that geeky about math, ask my kids). And I grew up in the benighted South of the USA, where I understand that most prejudices are over-represented compared to the rest of the country/continent.

So I apologize for not knowing this already (I know I should), but what roadblocks did/do girls have to face when it comes to pursuing math? I realize many can be very subtle, but I honestly would like to understand better what is/was going on here.

[Alatar]

I can only speak for the Irish system, but Higher Level Maths was probably 70% girls, 30% guys. I would say that in my experience, and only my personal experience, girls were more naturally disposed to do better at most subjects, and as a result, there was a higher percentage of girls in all higher level subjects. However, I would say that those who were exceptional at Maths/Physics tended to be guys, while there was an equal bias towards excellence in languages/arts among girls. I'm not saying if that's nature or nurture, but that was the observable experience in my schools. To be clear, there was no deterrent of any kind in play. That said, when I studied Electronic Engineering there were only 2 girls in a class of 80 and both of those girls had to attend a different school in order to study Higher Maths, which was a prerequisite for the course. Both girls went to Convent Schools which did not teach Higher Level Maths or the Science subjects.

[Primula Baggins]

I took all the math my high school offered, back in the 1970s, which was only possible because I took summer school every year. I never felt discouraged by any teacher or counselor. I have no trouble believing, in fact I know, that this was not true at every high school; I did know girls who were ridiculed for taking math or discouraged from doing so. "What are you going to use it for?" That was a fair question when most top science and engineering schools still didn't admit women or had only recently started doing so, and when the STEM professions still treated women as oddities who were a pain to accommodate.

I think you and I were both lucky, Anthy, where others were unlucky. I'm older than you and well remember the pervasive, open sexism of those times. I remember being told not to waste my time going to college when I was just going to marry and have babies. But my parents and people I respected didn't tell me this; they said the opposite. Other girls weren't so lucky.

Popular culture didn't help. Female characters in TV shows and commercials were often played for laughs as stupid ditzes. There is still a thread of that, though not so blatant, and some girls are apparently sensitive to it. Remember the talking Barbie doll a few years back that said "Math is harrrrd!"? I doubt that one thing destroyed any little girl's math ambitions, but it's a symptom of the culture.

I also witnessed peer pressure, girl on girl, to be or at least act dumb in high school. They weren't my peers and I didn't care, but other girls did. I would be surprised if that has vanished from the world. In fact, I know it hasn't; my daughter's talked about it. Fortunately they weren't her peers either; she's a geek like Mom (she'd kill me if she read this, but it's true), pursuing her own interests and dreams and damn the torpedoes.

[vison]

In my day, good lord, did I actually say, in my day? Anyway, at some point I decided to be two people and one of them was secretly interested in math and science and the other one was not-so-secretly interested in being socially acceptable. To do that, I lied like a rug about almost everything in my life and acted a part that haunts me to this day. I'm ashamed of it, but I can't be too hard on the girl I was. It was tough.

The funny thing, or maybe it's not funny, that to this day I am close friends with a few of those girls and it turns out we were all the same.

[axordil]

There are a couple of memes out there I find troublesome along these lines. The ditzy blonde/woman in general is one, but there's also the "dumb is cool" meme, the "parents are stupid and designed to be made fools of" meme, and the "men are Neanderthals you can't trust with burnt out matches" meme.

There's an anti-intellectual, anti-Enlightenment taint to all of them.

[anthriel]

I would say that in my experience, and only my personal experience, girls were more naturally disposed to do better at most subjects, and as a result, there was a higher percentage of girls in all higher level subjects.

I would say this was my experience as well, at least in high school.

However, I would say that those who were exceptional at Maths/Physics tended to be guys, while there was an equal bias towards excellence in languages/arts among girls. I'm not saying if that's nature or nurture, but that was the observable experience in my schools.

Yes, that's what I observed, too. It seemed like the top two or three students in those classes were male, and then most of the rest of the top performers were female.

To be clear, there was no deterrent of any kind in play.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Perhaps there was, and you and I were just unaware of it.

I never felt discouraged by any teacher or counselor.

Nor did I. I remember the teachers actually enjoying the fact that I enjoyed math.

I have no trouble believing, in fact I know, that this was not true at every high school; I did know girls who were ridiculed for taking math or discouraged from doing so.

I have only heard of such things post-high school. I certainly have no trouble believing it, and yet.. it's so hard to believe that someone could stand in front of any high school student and discourage their interest in any class. Really? REALLY?? You want to take more math? Why in the Sam Hill not?

"What are you going to use it for?" That was a fair question when most top science and engineering schools still didn't admit women or had only recently started doing so, and when the STEM professions still treated women as oddities who were a pain to accommodate.

Ah, so this may be why not. I have lots of engineers in my family, and it truly never occurred to me that I would not be allowed to study engineering, if that were my desire. I wonder if schools still were not admitting women in the early 80's? I would have been shocked to learn that, and I know my family would have been shocked as well.

I think you and I were both lucky, Anthy, where others were unlucky.

Agreed.

I'm older than you and well remember the pervasive, open sexism of those times. I remember being told not to waste my time going to college when I was just going to marry and have babies.

Ah, well, there you go. Maybe they just never thought I would marry (it did seem unlikely for lots of years), so for me it was, "Well, she'd better get a good job herself, if she's going to survive..."

Remember the talking Barbie doll a few years back that said "Math is harrrrd!"? I doubt that one thing destroyed any little girl's math ambitions, but it's a symptom of the culture.

Ummm, no, didn't know that. That particular Barbie would have been subjected to immolation, in my home. Melting to a little plastic puddle, *that's* hard. Math is fun.

I also witnessed peer pressure, girl on girl, to be or at least act dumb in high school.

Oh God yes. The popular saying at that time was "I'm so SURE", and we had it put on tshirts for the dance squad; we had to wear some sort of matching outfit to school on game days. I was always vastly irritated to have such a DUMB thing on my back. Yikes. Those were NOT the days.

[axordil]

It strikes me that there are likely some cultural and personal differences floating around out there when it comes to negative interactions. A teacher or guidance counselor might be less inclined to tell the (for example) the child of engineers in a city with a lot high-tech employers not to bother with math, college, etc.

In settings where there's an underlying assumption of failure for most people to escape the circumstances they're born into, that reluctance might not be so strong.

It ultimately comes down to individuals, of course, but individuals don't act in a vacuum.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

[it's so hard to believe that someone could stand in front of any high school student and discourage their interest in any class. Really? REALLY?? You want to take more math? Why in the Sam Hill not?

I can easily believe it. In a context different than what you are asking about here (obviously), it happened to me. I spent my early years in school in a place called West Islip, in Suffolk County, which is in the eastern half of Long Island. I excelled in math. When my mom separated from my first step-father, we moved to a place called Great Neck, in Nassau County, the western part of Long Island, a much ritzier place. I was in ninth grade. The guidance counselor basically blocked allowing me to take the honors math class, despite the fact that I had excelled in honors math in West Islip, arguing that the level was going to be much higher in the "better" school in Great Neck. As a result, I largely lost interest, and did not due particularly well in the "regular" math class that year. Which, in turn, justified the guidance counselor continue to block me from taking honors math the following two years.

While this is, again, a different situation, I still see some parallels. The guidance counselor was not consciously trying to be hurtful, but she was applying a deeply held bias, which in turn, became self-fulfilling.

In my last year in high school, I refused to follow the guidance counselor's guidance, and enrolled in the Advance Placement Calculus class, the only person in the class who had not taken the honors math classes the previous years. I managed to get the highest grade in the class, and got a 5 on the AP test, giving me full college credit for the class.

Later while in college I was for a time a double major in Math and English. However, in a class called Advanced Algebra, I took dozens of pages of copious notes on the concept of division. Concluding that I already knew as much as I wanted to about the concept of division, I dropped the class, lost all interest in math, and switched to a philosophy major.

[Dave_LF]

Weird; I had the exact opposite experience. I was almost a philosophy major, but then when I tried to apply for a "semester abroad" sort of program (in Oregon), my sort-of advisor argued against it saying that people who went there came back questioning religion. I ended up taking a semester off to do volunteer work instead; and came back as a math/science major (who questioned religion anyway).

[Griffon64]

I had a couple teachers ( for instance, in Home Economics, which was required for girls for grades 8 and 9 ) who lectured us about not pursuing maths or physics, and instead concentrate on useful classes like Home Economics and Typing.

Math was required throughout school, but you could take it at three levels - Lower, Standard, and High. Only High was accepted for any tertiary program in STEM. Standard got you into any other program in at the tertiary establishment of your choice. If you took Lower, you basically excluded yourself from a university, but you were required to take it for your high school diploma. In math class, we were seated in rows according to the level of Math we were taking. The Lower rows basically did nothing, the Standard rows were engaged for the first half of class and then allowed to do their homework ahead of time while us in the High row were engaged throughout and took our homework home.

There was no particular encouragement to take High, Standard was encouraged, and Lower ... well, people dropped into Lower when they couldn't cut Standard. I think maybe one or two started out taking Lower.

It didn't help that our math teacher in 10th grade ( the year when Math split from being a single-level course like every single other course at school, to being this three-tiered thing ) was a dreary, dry old dragon, with no sense of humor and no real interest remaining in teaching. I mostly remember her class for being drilled about spelling parallel ( Two l's in the middle! Two parallel l's in the middle! ), for being one of the only classrooms where even the rebel kids were deadly quiet and stood up when answering a question, as per school rules, and the approaching dread as she went down the rows, asking math problems you had to figure out on the spot. She got them from the text book but didn't do them in order so you couldn't work on yours ahead of time. Oh, and most of all, I remember the class for one perfect summer afternoon, when U2 were playing an evening show in the sports stadium directly across the road from the school. Midway through the class, an early sound check tuneup started. The look on her face as she primly got up and vainly tried to drown out the electric guitars by closing all the windows on that side of her classroom was perfect.

But, she didn't do a thing to instill any desire to pursue maths in any of her students. Maths wasn't fun in her class! No, it was a dreadful thing where you'd better be able to do that problem on the fly or you would be humiliated in front of the whole class.

That said, I grew up in an engineering family. There was never any question that I would pursue a degree other than a STEM. My parents would have flipped had I shown any interest in any other degree, or forbid, in not gaining a B.Sc at all. So those teachers discouraging their classes from taking maths or physics had no influence over me at all. My hobbies were painting and writing and drawing and reading, and I sometimes longingly glanced at the art class thinking it looked like fun, but I took my Math, Science, Latin, Computer Science ( and Accounting, because by then the classes that interested me that my parents would allow me to take had run out ) classes, along with my two language classes and various other bits and pieces required by the school system, at the High level.

[Lalaith]

I think the things, for me, that turned me off from math was having to do problems on the spot, like Griffy talks about, and being with my group of gifted students. It wasn't until I was well into college that I realized that I am actually just fine in math, well above average, in fact; however, I viewed myself through the lens of my peers from the gifted class, and many of them were truly gifted in math. I'm just above average in math, imo. So it didn't matter to me that I got A's and only a few B's. Because I didn't get all A's, or even H's, I was somehow "not good" in math.

(I realize how screwed up this is, and it's mostly just my own fault.)

I hate this because this skewed view of reality kept me from pursuing a Biology degree in college; I was afraid of Calculus. I wish I could have had the wisdom to see that (a) I probably would have done all right in Calculus, and (b) doing all right in Calculus didn't have to mean straight A's.

Anyway, I don't think any teacher ever overtly discouraged me in math. Certainly, that wasn't my experience in the gifted program. We were all encouraged to do math.

Now, I did have a teacher who ridiculed me in front of the entire class when I said I wanted to be a teacher. That was fun.

[anthriel]

[it's so hard to believe that someone could stand in front of any high school student and discourage their interest in any class. Really? REALLY?? You want to take more math? Why in the Sam Hill not?

I can easily believe it.

Of course, I believe it (easily!) as well, as I wrote above. This part you quote was me trying to convey my dismay that it IS true. Gak.

In my last year in high school, I refused to follow the guidance counselor's guidance, and enrolled in the Advance Placement Calculus class, the only person in the class who had not taken the honors math classes the previous years. I managed to get the highest grade in the class, and got a 5 on the AP test, giving me full college credit for the class.

Maverick.

I am really trying to remember, here, but I am fairly sure I never spoke to a guidance counselor in high school at all. I did go to a placement counselor in community college, when I was placed in a remedial math class. I was kind of wondering how that worked, and realized that THEY had made an ... wait for it... addition error on my scores. I guess I haven't had the best experience with the overall wisdom of guidance counselors, either.

[Maria]

I went to a small high school in southwest Missouri. My graduating class was 65 people (the biggest ever). There was a predominance of rednecksim in the school system... and yet I never let them influence me in any sort of way.

My parents' influence was all that counted, so I took every math and science class our little high school had to offer, even though this took some extreme juggling at times since some of the classes were only offered every other year.

When I got to college, I started out going for a degree in Biology, since Science was expected of me. I eventually shrugged off my mother's influence and admitted that I really didn't care for science all that much after all and concentrated on my military classes. Since my school didn't offer a major in military science, I stuck with the Biology degree since I was almost done with it anyway.... but always felt that my minor of Military Science was my major. I deliberate chose advanced classes in the Biology field that didn't add up to anything useful, just to get the degree so I could get commissioned and go on to active military service.

Anyway, I don't recall any sort of pressure not to take math and science, since I ignored the input of people I did not respect. Abandoning math and science was harder, since my parents are pretty smart and if they wanted me to do something it was usually a pretty good idea.

[vison]

I remember sitting in an HPD class (Health and Personal Development) and being told with absolute, perfect, grave, stern-faced seriousness that girls should NEVER "beat" boys at anything. Tennis, math, ANYTHING. It ruined their egos, apparently.

And, worst of all, we bought it. I don't remember ONE of us saying "If being beaten in math is going to destroy a boy, he can't be much of a boy" or anything like that.

Oh, no. We were taught that the male ego is a fragile thing requiring constant boosting. And yet at the same time we were taught that you must never GIVE IN to a boy over sex, oh, no, that was about the worst thing you could do. One of the reasons was? That the BOY might get "caught" and have to marry you, you slut.

If you weren't there and weren't subject to this stuff, you might not believe it. It was constant and pervasive. Girls were second rate and moreover were supposed to be glad they were second rate - suitable beings to take care of the Lords of the Universe, to bear their children.

There were still teachers around in those days who thought that too much studying might render a woman physically unfit for childbearing and I'm not making that up.

I just can't take this "males are suffering" stuff too seriously, in all honesty. I think that some girls are coming in to their own, and that they are often superior students who will outperform some boys and that's just the way it is.

I see no reason at all to rejig the schools AGAIN to make sure boys come out on top: because that's what some people are aiming for. Not equality. Superiority, like they think is the natural order of things.

Several magazine articles lately have informed me that colleges in the US must be "failing" boys because so many young men are out of work, even with college degrees. A lot of young women are out of work, too, but then, they can always go work at The Gap or somewhere, it's not the national tragedy male unemployment is.

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH.

Girls can also get married and stay home and have babies and there would be more jobs for boys.

[River]

I was discouraged from pursuing science by my father. I was placed in the math classes above my grade level. I had to work hard to keep up. Meanwhile, kids in Russia learned algebra in the fifth grade or something. So, therefore, because I had to work hard to keep up with math a year ahead of me, I must totally suck. Don't worry if you can't follow the logic. Having written it down, I can't either. But since science required math...fill in the blank.

Fortunately, my mom thought my dad was full of it. She also figured out many many years before he did that once I make up my mind you can either give me a hand or get out of my way. So, while I was in HS, she quietly got me hooked up with job shadows and volunteer opportunities and my teachers in school lent me books and gave me awards that turned into scholarships and so on. Thus, I ignored the advice I didn't like and followed the advice I did and, while I was at it, went to college 3000 miles away. Space! Both physical and psychological! It was wonderful, it was perfect, and I totally thrived. Eventually, when I was halfway through, my dad came around. But by then I didn't really care what either of my parents thought.

[nerdanel]

I remember sitting in an HPD class (Health and Personal Development) and being told with absolute, perfect, grave, stern-faced seriousness that girls should NEVER "beat" boys at anything. Tennis, math, ANYTHING. It ruined their egos, apparently.
...
We were taught that the male ego is a fragile thing requiring constant boosting.

Just wanted to mention that these views are alive and well in various ways.

If I was ever told that I shouldn't outperform boys, I don't remember it at this moment, and I'd have undoubtedly given the speaker a direct, blunt response at the time. I do recall having very explicit, overt competitions in math and science with the other high-scoring kids, most of whom tended to be boys in middle and high school. I definitely remember certain egos being fragile when I beat them, but I don't recall thinking of it as a male thing. I just understood that I was competitive and so were they, and whomever lost would naturally be disappointed and try to beat their competitors, regardless of gender, the next time. As best as I can recall, the same thing held true in my chemistry department in college - of the five of us at the top of our major in my graduating class, two were guys and three were women. (The guys' staying power in chemistry was a bit longer, though - the two of them are now tenure-track profs in chemistry, after dazzling PhD and postdoc performances at top schools. Of the women, two of us went off to law school to do high-tech law, and both of us decided to abandon the "high-tech" part. The third is finishing up her MD/PhD.)

The first exposure I can recall to this idea that women should not try to outachieve the guys was in law school. Almost all of my female classmates who dated guys in law school reported that they found it nearly impossible to date outside the Ivy League/MIT - not because they didn't want to - but because other guys openly told them that they didn't want to date Ivy women because it would make their resumes look bad in comparison. One of my friends met an "openminded" guy who was willing to try dating her, but he dumped her after a few months, telling her that he just couldn't deal with the fact that he felt her academic pedigree outweighed his. It was still worse for my Orthodox Jewish female acquaintances in law school - many reported that their families and communities had actively discouraged them from attending law school, especially a top-ranked one, because it would make them less marriageable: they were narrowing the pool of guys with flashier credentials than they had, and obviously, a self-respecting Orthodox Jewish guy couldn't possibly marry a woman with more impressive credentials than his own. Plus, the guys needed to make sure that their women would place homemaking and child-rearing far ahead of their careers -- so that they could make sure to fulfill all those male-only mitzvot! -- so why would they take a chance on high-performing attorney wives?

I do not recall hearing these issues arising at Cambridge, but honestly, the student body seemed younger, less interested in settling down that my law school class, and less likely to be looking for partners because many people were not planning to stay in the UK indefinitely. It may not have arisen for this reason. It is, however, also possible that the student body was more progressive, which is something I noticed around GLB students: acceptance seemed almost universally forthcoming (at least at my college and among law postgraduate students), which had not been true when I attended law school.

The issues you describe, vison, still permeate outside the educational context. I am pretty seriously exploring the possibility of buying my first condo, something that has caused consternation among some dates and friends. I'm told that guys will be intimidated: a woman who has been so brazen as to purchase her own property? This apparently may scare off the men, as female condo-ownership apparently reeks of independence and does not mesh well with a guy's need to feel that he can provide for his (dependent) woman. Well. In that case, thank goodness that my dating pool is not limited to men. I have, however, discovered that other single women in their 20s and 30s who have sufficient cash reserves to take advantage of the down real estate market are refraining from buying homes solely because they think it will make them less attractive to male prospective partners. Which century is this again?

[vison]

*sigh*

I dunno.

What the hell, what the hell?

See, when I say women should take over?

I'm not kidding.

[Holbytla]

*sigh*

I dunno.

What the hell, what the hell?

See, when I say women should take over?

I'm not kidding.

Cuz you have never been a white male, an African male, an Asian male a Mid Eastern male or any other of a thousand other males or females roaming the planet. You know what you know and who could ask for more?

None of us are blessed with some intrinsic value that supersedes another. Your perspective is what it is, as is mine or anyone else on the planet whoever has an opinion or who has breathed a lungful of air.

I can see the inequities that have been done to women and a myriad of other social/ethnic classes, but I can't ever really know what that means.

The same as how none of of us can know what it means to live the life of any individual that has toiled and dealt with unspeakable ills that most of us couldn't deal with.

It never will be more about race or class or gender than it will be about individual human tribulations. Never ever ever ever, because few of us fit into a specific class, but all of us are individuals with unique issues and crosses to bear.

The history of the world is full of peoples repressing people beyond compare, but at the end of the day we are us and yet we are only ourselves for eternity.

[JewelSong]

Math makes my head explode. Which is really strange, since I intrinsically understand music theory and can analyze a Bach chorale...which is simply math. But I do not have a good grasp of the "shape" of mathematics...whereas I "see" the shape of music right away. Some kind of weird synesthesia.

It seems we are discussing personal stories right now, rather than education in general. I was never discouraged from learning any kind of subject, but I knew very early on that what I wanted to do was teach music and I stubbornly stuck to that all through school, eschewing higher science and math courses to take music theory, chorus and band. I have never regretted it, as the older I get, the clearer I am that I am doing what I was meant to do. However, if I had been inclined towards math or science or some "less girlish" subject, I know my parents would have supported and encouraged me, because they supported everything I wanted to do. I think my father (a civil engineer) would have been thrilled to have his daughter follow in his footsteps...as it was, he got two musicians, an philosopher and (finally) one engineer.

I don't remember any outward prejudice against girls learning math and science when I was in high school. There were a few very "brainy" girls. They were somewhat revered and all had equally "brainy" boyfriends.

(I do remember my mother discouraging me from taking drivers ed, because "girls didn't need to drive as much as boys." At the time, I didn't care...and I realized later that it was my mother's own fear of driving that drove that particular prejudice. She was afraid I would crash the car...and she may have had a point, as I was a somewhat ungraceful child. I learned to drive in college - my boyfriend taught me on a standard transmission van, of all things.)

[anthriel]

Jewel, I am enjoying the personal stories! Although I should know better than to trot out my "brainy" credentials in this group. Sheesh.

Does it seem odd that I never felt "brainy"? I might have been thought that by my classmates, from time to time, but I think I mostly just registered as a mouse. In "Princess Diaries", Mia, during her pre-transformation era, laments: "Someone sat on me again today". That was me, although a change in hairstyle would not have helped me as much as it helped her.

And I think maybe we need to cut a little slack (this isn't in response to anyone's specific post, btw) to the parents who tried to guide us as little girls to realistic goals... at the time.

My dad made sure I took typing in high school, because data entry into computers at that time involved a typing-like skill set, and he thought that would be a good job for me. I took typing, and am glad of it, but when I went on to study science he sure didn't try to force me into the data entry clerk he once envisioned me as. I think he was just trying to make sure I could do something employable.

And he never, ever helped my with my math homework, darn him. What is the use of having a dad with dual master's in engineering and math, if you can't lean on all that smarts once in a while?