I want to "hear" what you have to say, and I have a couple of thoughts of my own... questions, really.Affirmative Action
Jewel, I think I'll start a new thread. I want to "hear" what you have to say, and I have a couple of thoughts of my own... questions, really.
I want to "hear" what you have to say, and I have a couple of thoughts of my own... questions, really."What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
That was totally clear!Griffon64 wrote:My comment wasn't directed at your situation at all, btw. Just wanted to make sure that that's clear!
It actually never occurred to me that you were trying to target me specifically with those words, although it could read as if I felt that way, now that I look at it.Actually, no, I really did agree with you. And you couldn't be harder on me than I have been on myself, anyway. I had had those same thoughts about my reaction to that situation, and did consider, on my own, if it were my own loss of privilege that I was startled by. Probably had a lot to do with it, actually.
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
First, I've been only quasi-watching this thread as I am attending a conference and my downtime is limited. So my apologies if I'm missing nuances, etc. Second, SirD, I'm slicing and dicing and bolding your post. I find this practice a bit tacky to say the least, but I'm doing it anyway. Apologies, but I want to put two things side-by-side because you stumbled on something illustrative that's a bit near and dear to me and every other science chick.
Biology...or...
Affirmative action won't fix that. Awareness might.
SirDennis wrote: Right now, the curriculum and practice favours girls in the younger grades, perhaps with the hope that a solid grounding in certain subjects (mainly math) will carry forward [and hopefully override] to that time when they seem, as if biologically, to lose interest in such things.
Biology...or...
...this noted lingering sexism or other forms of social pressure driving girls away from math?Though, I'm not surprised, and I will tell you why: When doing my teaching practica in 2007-08 I was horrified to see how alive and well racism and sexism was in the schools I was in. Much could be blamed on certain teachers, but it was pervasive, throughout the entire school and as far as I could tell the entire ministry.
Affirmative action won't fix that. Awareness might.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
They do seem to be at odds. While the claim is made (and certainly planned around) that biology is a factor, I am not certain that it is not of the same flavour as claims that members of certain ancestry have smaller brains, and therefore learning capacity, as members of another certain tribe. It certainly seems like it might be the case now that you mention it.
... and because sexism, racism and discrimination in general are so pervasive -- and deeply internalized, as their outward expression is now frowned upon in education circles -- it would be impossible to ascertain one way or the other.
I contend that where sexism and/or racism is observed, or even suspected, it may be a product of economic projections (ie what are the chances they will ever be a geneticist?) for a given individual. At the same time, said projections are also tempered by paternalism/sexism/racism. It is an ugly, vicious circle. Thankfully many have succeeded in spite of it... but I lament the wasted potential and broken dreams of those who haven't, and will not in future.
Thank you for helping me focus my thoughts here.
... and because sexism, racism and discrimination in general are so pervasive -- and deeply internalized, as their outward expression is now frowned upon in education circles -- it would be impossible to ascertain one way or the other.
I contend that where sexism and/or racism is observed, or even suspected, it may be a product of economic projections (ie what are the chances they will ever be a geneticist?) for a given individual. At the same time, said projections are also tempered by paternalism/sexism/racism. It is an ugly, vicious circle. Thankfully many have succeeded in spite of it... but I lament the wasted potential and broken dreams of those who haven't, and will not in future.
Thank you for helping me focus my thoughts here.
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superwizard
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I apologize in advance if I am restating anything for I have not read a large portion of this thread. I just wished to add in my $0.02
So as some of you know, I've now moved to Caltech to get my PhD. Caltech is great in many ways: nice people, friendly environment etc.
One thing it does not do very well in is diversity. In fact I'll go past that, Caltech is absolutely horrible in that regards. Caltech has no affirmative action. As a result, 1% of Caltech undergraduates are black. 1% at Caltech means that there were ~9 black undergraduate students. The other numbers are not much better. There are 0 (I repeat, 0) students who identify as american indian or alaska native. Only 6% of the undergraduate population is hispanic.
The common argument I hear is that Caltech is simply too difficult to allow someone without the best math and science background to attend. They argue that anyone who has not mastered the sciences by the time they get here has no hope of succeeding. That bothers me to no end.
My alma mater is arguably equally as strong as Caltech (Stanford) but was much more diverse. 10% of the undergraduate population was black, 14% were hispanic and 3% were american indian or alaska native.
Now quite frankly I would argue that as a private institution Caltech should, and as within its rights, have affirmative action. I am not one of these minorities (Middle Easterners are over represented) but these horrible statistics drive me crazy. I see no diversity amongst these students. I saw a trip from a local middle school; the students were predominantly hispanic and I could not help but ask myself: when these students walk around will they not notice that no one here looks like them? Will they not internalize it and think that this is just not their future? That they are not destined to roam these halls?
I look at the current undergraduates and I think: how are these students going to grow when they live in such a homogenous enclave? How will they grow without meeting and debating with say a queer Hawaiian native who believes in Hawaii rights to succeed from the United States or an african american who grew up with a teenage mother and an incarcerated father in one of the poorest parts of Stockton (he is in fact current running for city council http://mdtubbs.com/)?
I believe that private universities (I would argue the same for public but understand that that might be a bit more contentious) are not meant to 'reward' who they see as the most fit, but should instead try to create the best collective group of students they possibly can. This has to go beyond academics. I believe affirmative action helps the university as a whole.
PS: I whole-heartedly agree that people from underprivileged backgrounds regardless of race should also have affirmative action
PPS: By referencing Stanford I am in no way saying that it is ideal there either. Stanford itself has a long way to go too. It's just a lot farther along that way than Caltech is.
PPPS: Women are also underrepresented at Caltech. ~40% of the undergraduate population is female. That said Caltech has worked hard to improve this number over the years.
So as some of you know, I've now moved to Caltech to get my PhD. Caltech is great in many ways: nice people, friendly environment etc.
One thing it does not do very well in is diversity. In fact I'll go past that, Caltech is absolutely horrible in that regards. Caltech has no affirmative action. As a result, 1% of Caltech undergraduates are black. 1% at Caltech means that there were ~9 black undergraduate students. The other numbers are not much better. There are 0 (I repeat, 0) students who identify as american indian or alaska native. Only 6% of the undergraduate population is hispanic.
The common argument I hear is that Caltech is simply too difficult to allow someone without the best math and science background to attend. They argue that anyone who has not mastered the sciences by the time they get here has no hope of succeeding. That bothers me to no end.
My alma mater is arguably equally as strong as Caltech (Stanford) but was much more diverse. 10% of the undergraduate population was black, 14% were hispanic and 3% were american indian or alaska native.
Now quite frankly I would argue that as a private institution Caltech should, and as within its rights, have affirmative action. I am not one of these minorities (Middle Easterners are over represented) but these horrible statistics drive me crazy. I see no diversity amongst these students. I saw a trip from a local middle school; the students were predominantly hispanic and I could not help but ask myself: when these students walk around will they not notice that no one here looks like them? Will they not internalize it and think that this is just not their future? That they are not destined to roam these halls?
I look at the current undergraduates and I think: how are these students going to grow when they live in such a homogenous enclave? How will they grow without meeting and debating with say a queer Hawaiian native who believes in Hawaii rights to succeed from the United States or an african american who grew up with a teenage mother and an incarcerated father in one of the poorest parts of Stockton (he is in fact current running for city council http://mdtubbs.com/)?
I believe that private universities (I would argue the same for public but understand that that might be a bit more contentious) are not meant to 'reward' who they see as the most fit, but should instead try to create the best collective group of students they possibly can. This has to go beyond academics. I believe affirmative action helps the university as a whole.
PS: I whole-heartedly agree that people from underprivileged backgrounds regardless of race should also have affirmative action
PPS: By referencing Stanford I am in no way saying that it is ideal there either. Stanford itself has a long way to go too. It's just a lot farther along that way than Caltech is.
PPPS: Women are also underrepresented at Caltech. ~40% of the undergraduate population is female. That said Caltech has worked hard to improve this number over the years.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Hachimitsu
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superwizard
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Not too many. I just looked it up. Only 16% of students come from families that make $60,000 or less (11% come from families that make $40,000 or less).Wilma wrote:Superwizard, you have given some serious food for thought. Are there any white students who grew up in poverty? Or is it just primarily a money thing?
That said, this is a general problem among elite universities (here is an article discussing this problem). I saw this at Stanford as well (roughly same number of students whose families make less than $60,000). There is no doubt in my mind that most of the students meant well, but there have been some issues with students not quite appreciating what it really means to be poor (I am guilty of this as well). There were several articles by stanford students discussing this.
PS: Caltech is not predominantly white. It is in fact 40% white and 40% asian .
And the other 20%?superwizard wrote: PS: Caltech is not predominantly white. It is in fact 40% white and 40% asian .
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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superwizard
- Ingólemo
- Posts: 866
- Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 10:21 am
Non Resident Aliens? From Venus, maybe?
1% African Americans, 6% Hispanic does seem horribly skewed.
1% African Americans, 6% Hispanic does seem horribly skewed.
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Yep! The card, not the aliens, of course. ( My brain's sentence parsing module seems kind of buggy this morning. I think it needs a good wallop of caffeine. )
Although the green card still has a vaguely green strip up top, as I recall. I had to hand mine back when I got my citizenship certificate, so I can't check.
Although the green card still has a vaguely green strip up top, as I recall. I had to hand mine back when I got my citizenship certificate, so I can't check.
River - I think it was the top back? And I do mean vaguely green 
I remember thinking how awesome looking the card was, in general, with that huge magnetic strip that had the little outline of the States and some other stuff on it when you tilted it a bit.
Sometimes I wish I had some extra eyes on antennae. Or perhaps another pair of hands.
I remember thinking how awesome looking the card was, in general, with that huge magnetic strip that had the little outline of the States and some other stuff on it when you tilted it a bit.
Sometimes I wish I had some extra eyes on antennae. Or perhaps another pair of hands.