Contraception and Religious Freedom (and related issues)

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

axordil wrote:
But you are intervening in a contract that both parties agreed to.
Sure am. The government has a vested interest in doing so, when the welfare of the public is at stake. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, the right of the government to do so in such cases has been settled law for more than 70 years.
Bear in mind when you write that the long list of economic transactions I believe should be legal. For instance, prostitution.

From my point of view, prostitution is a private contract, and there exists a third party meddling in that private contract in the form of a police officer arresting prostitutes and customers. I'm not including sex-slaves in this description, that's another and much worse thing going on lumped in with the prostitution issue.

Except in Nevada, a prostitute is an independent contractor, both employee and employer, and the unwritten contract entered into with the customer is that one provides money while the other provides sex. So here we have something that may be considered much worse than a contract that merely says "we will not cover contraception", we have a contract that says "you will provide sex." In Nevada, however, there is little in the way of third party interference, but you have a boss who says "in exchange for me hiring you, you will provide sex to clients."

I'm willing to leave that private contract alone, even though the government has much to say about it. Even though the terms of the contact are much more invasive than merely not supplying birth control. I'm willing to leave it alone because the parties enter into it voluntarily. And if I'm willing to leave that alone, I'm certainly not going to intervene on behalf of an added benefit that an employer chooses to not supply.

Meanwhile I heard a good analogy about this contraception issues. Suppose a law were passed requiring all supermarkets and restaurants to sell bacon. The Kosher establishments all say "excuse me, but bacon isn't kosher, we can't sell that."

"Are you saying bacon should be banned?" "No, that supermarket across the street is selling bacon, they can go there."

"Are you saying your employees shouldn't be allowed to eat bacon?" "No, they can eat bacon, but they can't buy it here."

"Aren't you forcing your religious views on others by not selling bacon?" "They can still get it elsewhere, how am I forcing my views on others?"

"You're trying to control what I eat!" "No, I'm only trying to control what I sell."
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
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SirDennis
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Post by SirDennis »

Was it Lali that said (in this thread) "I hate politics."

On the radio last night, a rep with the National Association of Evangelical Churches noted that where contraception is free, the demand for abortions decreases, and that they are not against contraception per se. However the Association is standing with the Catholics on the freedom of religion aspect of the debate. (sorry no link or names to verify I did not mishear yet another bit of radio news)

Add to this the various and sundry other matters of conscience that NAEC says nothing about, some of which are a direct result of Republican policies (ie efforts to maintain the status quo in terms of government allocation of resources and foreign policy) and I see nothing but hypocrisy here. Furthermore I am not even sure "religious freedom" should be a factor in how employers relate to their employees. What service they provide, fine, but employment standards should not be subject to the whims of (or lack of) conscience, especially in a world where the profit motive trumps all other considerations.

All this is to say, Lali, I too hate politics.
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vison
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Post by vison »

You could live somewhere where there is "no" politics and you never get even the illusion that you have a say.
Dig deeper.
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Túrin Turambar
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

vison wrote:You could live somewhere where there is "no" politics and you never get even the illusion that you have a say.
I have to say that's my opinion as well.
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anthriel
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Post by anthriel »

vison wrote:You could live somewhere where there is "no" politics and you never get even the illusion that you have a say.
I'm not quite sure that no politics means a place with no representation in the government, though. I remember a quote about if you love law and sausage, don't watch them being made, and I think it is apt... making law is an ugly, ponderous, frustrating thing. Is this process what you see as politics?

Maybe it is. But politics to me is not confined to government... there are certainly politics in schools, churches, and the kids' parent/teacher organization. "Politics", to me, means the manipulation of others for personal gain. Personal power, maybe. Whatever it is, it's not for the greater good.

The way I define politics, I hate it too.
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
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Post by nerdanel »

anthriel wrote:I remember a quote about if you love law and sausage, don't watch them being made, and I think it is apt... making law is an ugly, ponderous, frustrating thing.
I'm going slightly o/t here, but ... yes. Most federal courthouses have lofty, idealistic sayings carved into their walls and floors. I like go read them and remember the thrill I used to feel when I thought they were true. I still think that the legal system, with all its limitations and flaws, is most days reaching for those ideals. If I ever stop thinking that, I will resign my bar membership immediately.

/o/t
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh

When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I think so, too, nel. And I'm exponentially more cynical than you are.
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Post by axordil »

Politics is how, absent a God-King, you get anything requiring or involving more than two human beings accomplished.
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Post by Holbytla »

Lord_Morningstar wrote:
vison wrote:You could live somewhere where there is "no" politics and you never get even the illusion that you have a say.
I have to say that's my opinion as well.
Or you can attempt to affect change, and cry and moan all the live long day because at least you tried.

I run into this sort of thing at work a lot of the time. People tend to say, "that is just the way they do things around here. At least we have a job".

I can't buy into that attitude whether it is politics, business or any type of social interaction. My grandfather worked as a longshoreman way way back when. If he took a day off to attend his daughter's wedding or if he had appendicitis he was subjected to being fired.

We have progressed a long way since then, because people affected change. It's pretty ugly at times and many times it is all for naught, but when the feathers are ruffled enough, change will come.

Case in point, Barney Frank is retiring. He knew the Freddie Mac/bailout fiasco was about to come crashing down around his ears. People were really angry and heads were rolling.
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anthriel
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Post by anthriel »

nerdanel wrote:
anthriel wrote:I remember a quote about if you love law and sausage, don't watch them being made, and I think it is apt... making law is an ugly, ponderous, frustrating thing.
I'm going slightly o/t here, but ... yes. Most federal courthouses have lofty, idealistic sayings carved into their walls and floors. I like go read them and remember the thrill I used to feel when I thought they were true. I still think that the legal system, with all its limitations and flaws, is most days reaching for those ideals. If I ever stop thinking that, I will resign my bar membership immediately.

/o/t

Okay, so you guys don't like my quote. :) Please note that making sausage isn't the same as sausage, and the ends sometimes justify the means.

I was just trying to figure out if the way making law isn't always pretty is what vison was describing as "politics".

I still like sausage, btw. :)
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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vison
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Post by vison »

I don't "hate" politics. I intensely dislike some politicians and some political actions, but politics IS how humans work.

I think that there are just too many of us in any given area. We lose the connections to each other that make us care.
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Post by nerdanel »

anthriel wrote:
nerdanel wrote:
anthriel wrote:I remember a quote about if you love law and sausage, don't watch them being made, and I think it is apt... making law is an ugly, ponderous, frustrating thing.
I'm going slightly o/t here, but ... yes. Most federal courthouses have lofty, idealistic sayings carved into their walls and floors. I like go read them and remember the thrill I used to feel when I thought they were true. I still think that the legal system, with all its limitations and flaws, is most days reaching for those ideals. If I ever stop thinking that, I will resign my bar membership immediately.

/o/t

Okay, so you guys don't like my quote. :) Please note that making sausage isn't the same as sausage, and the ends sometimes justify the means.
I was trying to say that I liked your quote, and then I was indulging in some o/t navel gazing about it, as I continue to be in the middle of a never-ending quarter-life crisis re: exactly what I want from my legal career. That's all.
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh

When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
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anthriel
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Post by anthriel »

O/T navel gazing is all good. :)
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

When I hear "politics" in the context mentioned here, I think of people playing crappy power games for the sake of getting power (eg. saying whatever people wanna hear to become more popular), not of conscientious people with differing views trying to work together.
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Post by SirDennis »

IAWY :agree: (that is what I meant by politics)
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Post by Holbytla »

yovargas wrote:When I hear "politics" in the context mentioned here, I think of people playing crappy power games for the sake of getting power (eg. saying whatever people wanna hear to become more popular), not of conscientious people with differing views trying to work together.
I agree and the "machine" has become too unwieldy. The same can be said for most large companies. They have long ago ceased to be what they intended to be.

Social interaction and commonality are good things to an extent, but it seems to me that at some point, you lose what made you what you were.
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Lalaith
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Post by Lalaith »

yovargas wrote:When I hear "politics" in the context mentioned here, I think of people playing crappy power games for the sake of getting power (eg. saying whatever people wanna hear to become more popular), not of conscientious people with differing views trying to work together.
That is what I have in mind, too, when I say, "I hate politics."

I would add to that that I really dislike the way political and social issues can cause intense divisions, fights, and animosities. This is particularly painful to me when it involves people that I otherwise like very much. I don't like to have ugly feelings stirred up toward others, and I don't like feeling that directed at me either. I don't like to see it between others as well.

Yes, I know there is no way to avoid this; it doesn't mean that I have to say I like it.

And, to be honest, I don't follow politics closely, so I often feel like I can't defend my views very well against those of you who are political experts. It's not to say that my views are uninformed; it's just that I've researched the things that really matter to me to my own satisfaction. Once I get there, I'm not interested in researching something to death because I really just don't like the subject area.

If that makes me an ignorant fool, then so be it.
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anthriel
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Post by anthriel »

yovargas wrote:When I hear "politics" in the context mentioned here, I think of people playing crappy power games for the sake of getting power (eg. saying whatever people wanna hear to become more popular), not of conscientious people with differing views trying to work together.
Yes. I agree!
My twin wrote:If that makes me an ignorant fool, then so be it.
Far from it. :hug:
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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vison
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Post by vison »

So are you willing to turn it all over to the guys who love politics? The kinds of guys we see all around us now?

I, too, would like to retire to my rural fastness and read philosophy and cultivate bees and grapes, but . . . I'm a citizen of a pretty good country and I ain't gonna withdraw because I don't want to get my hands dirty.
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Lalaith
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Post by Lalaith »

No, of course not. I vote in every election that comes my way--local, state, or federal. I lobby for change quietly by sending letters or emails to my representatives or putting signs in my yard or passing out flyers or mailers or sharing my views if someone asks. I don't have to come on here and get into messy discussions.

And I sort of resent your implication that I am uninvolved and withdrawn. I don't have to love politics (in the purer sense of the word) or enjoy political debates and discussions to be an involved citizen.
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