After America, over-education and perpetual adolescence

[vison]

Superfluous?? Yes, we may not be making that much stuff, but the "over-educated" west is still doing pretty darn well at inventing stuff to make, some of it just cool luxuries, but some of it stuff that legitimately does humanity a lot of good - yes, medicine being the big one, again. I'm hoping for/expecting a cure for AIDS in the next decade, as one example, but I'm not expecting it to be coming out of India, China, Indonesia or Brazil.

I think you could be in for a surprise, yovargas.

[SirDennis]

It's an interesting question...that unfortunately we won't be able to find any reliable data for.

Perhaps that's why I've never brought it up.. there really is no way of knowing at this point.

You may be interested in a little known dystopian novel by Anthony Burgess called The Wanting Seed.

Theme:
Although the novel addresses many societal issues, the primary subject is overpopulation and its relation to culture. Religion, government, and history are also addressed. A significant portion of the book is a condemnation of war.

Plot:
The novel begins by introducing the two protagonists: Tristram Foxe, a history teacher, and his wife, Beatrice-Joanna, a homemaker. They have recently suffered through their young son's death.
Throughout the first portion of the novel, overpopulation is depicted through the limitation and reuse of materials, and extremely cramped living conditions.
There is also active discrimination against heterosexuals, homosexuality being encouraged as a measure against overpopulation. Self-sterilization is also encouraged.
One of the major conflicts of the novel is between Tristram and his brother, Derek. Very much alike at first, Derek chose a different path from Tristram and pretends to be homosexual while in public to help his career. In private, he has an affair with Beatrice-Joanna, and when she forgets to take her State-provided contraceptives, she becomes illegally pregnant. She has sex with her husband, Tristram, and his brother, Derek, within a 24-hour time span, thus the paternity of her twin boys is uncertain.
Life changes as the homosexual police ('Greyboys') become more active and more repressive - something that begins as a mysterious blight spreads across the world. Tristram is arrested after getting unintentionally mixed up in a protest and spends the next section of the novel in jail, as society outside changes rapidly.

Read the rest of the summary here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wanting_Seed

Published in 1962, the same year as his more famous work A Clockwork Orange, the novel is set in a future where people who aren't sterilized need a license to have children -- both measures are in play already in some parts of the world today -- and where it is just safer to be homosexual because accidentally getting pregnant was against the law.

An overall point of the book, Ax would take note, is that social engineering works as a pendulum swinging back and forth between extremes rather than ever settling on a sane middle ground.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm not sure what the regularly scheduled thread even is.

[vison]

I know how you hate these wandering, meandering threads, Voronwë, but I happen to love them!!! Drifting with the breeze . . . .

[SirDennis]

I know how you hate these wandering, meandering threads, Voronwë, but I happen to love them!!! Drifting with the breeze . . . .

I re-christen this thread: "The Sampler." With apologies to the TS of course.

Sometimes it's just easier to talk about microwaves.

[Primula Baggins]

With this bunch? Herding cats ain't in it.

[axordil]

Cats at least have limits. Try parakeets. Hyperthyroid parakeets.

See what a liberal arts education can do for you! I haz metafor and hiperboly!

[axordil]

Cats at least have limits. Try parakeets. Hyperthyroid parakeets.

See what a liberal arts education can do for you! I haz metafor and hiperboly!

[Maria]

You can say that again!

[anthriel]

I think stuttering is associated with developmental difficulties, and can be exascerbated by cultural issues in childhood, leading, perhaps, to a prolonged adolescence? Maybe?


Well, I *tried* to keep it on track...

[Primula Baggins]

That was very nice, Anthriel.

Now help me with this cooler of salmon, will you please?

[vison]

Watch out, anthriel!!! She's devious and sly.

[Primula Baggins]

Moi?

[River]

I think stuttering is associated with developmental difficulties, and can be exascerbated by cultural issues in childhood, leading, perhaps, to a prolonged adolescence? Maybe?


Well, I *tried* to keep it on track...

So I'm looking hard and I don't see any tracks...

[anthriel]

Sometimes, one needs to exercise one's imagination. <sniff>



And I am WELL aware of the Primster's tricks, btw. Although that cooler of salmon was *so* nice of her to bring along, yes? Fresh salmon.. mmmmm....

[Primula Baggins]

thwap

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Y'all are 'opeless.

[Primula Baggins]

Yup.

thwap

[nerdanel]

Apologies for osgiliating the osgiliation by responding belatedly to River.

2) Make college free. No tuition and room and board = no need for loans. If we put education ahead of the military-industrial complex, we could probably afford it. But since this is the US we're talking about, forget I even mentioned it.

I have no quarrel with putting education ahead of military spending. I do not, however, think it is good to make all higher-education free (or very low-cost/taxpayer-subsidized) without more. My experience in the UK showed me that this leads directly to perpetual adolescence on the part of (often very-intelligent) students who can remain in school at little or no cost to themselves for years, collecting advanced degrees without a clear roadmap for how those degrees enhance their future employability (or even in what they might wish to be employed).

I suspect that free or seriously discounted education could also encourage specialization in arts fields that are not directly useful to employers. If the degree is not costing you very much (or anything at all), you need worry far less about whether it will make you any income down the line. Of course, it is clear that even students taking out loans often spend insufficient time considering how their degrees will lead to gainful employment, which is why...

3) Require lenders to only lend money to students in fields of study that are employable. When you get a mortage or car loan, the lenders demand proof that you can pay it back. AFAIK (I'm one of the lucky fraction that does not have any student loans) the student lenders don't do this. That needs to stop. No more BFAs carrying >$60K in debt. You want that money, you need to work to a degree that will earn. Which probably means that the bankruptcy laws need to be changed so that student debts can be canceled along with everything else when someone declares. Without that, the lenders have no reason to comply with this scheme. This one's probably the most realistic. It sticks in my craw a bit, allowing someone to tell someone else what they can and can't do because they're the ones holding the purse strings. But I'm not sure if there's any other workable way to restore sanity to the student loan system. That said, I'd be happy to hear why it's a bad idea.

This is spot-on. I support this idea fully. In my neck of the woods, I think it would work wonders within the law school context. There are a large number of ABA accredited law schools who are charging astronomical amounts to law students (well over 100K in total for three years) and are misrepresenting their post-graduation employment statistics. Their graduates are vastly in debt and are unable to secure legal employment (or in some cases, any employment) to pay back their loans. Many would declare bankruptcy to discharge their loans, which they cannot afford to pay back, if they could. I think that the quickest way to crack down on the law schools who are inducing students to spend borrowed money on their programs, which are of questionable value re: employment outcome, would be to restrict their supply of student loan money by putting pressure on the lenders (e.g. by making loans dischargeable in bankruptcy). I think the lenders will then, and only then, quickly crack down on schools and degree programs (including many humanities subjects) that are likely to produce poor employment outcomes. And I see no other way to make this happen effectively -- because students seem to be unable or unwilling to make rational decisions in their own self-interest re: whether a particular degree program is a financially sane thing for them to attempt.

[Dave_LF]

I have no quarrel with putting education ahead of military spending. I do not, however, think it is good to make all higher-education free (or very low-cost/taxpayer-subsidized) without more. My experience in the UK showed me that this leads directly to perpetual adolescence on the part of (often very-intelligent) students who can remain in school at little or no cost to themselves for years, collecting advanced degrees without a clear roadmap for how those degrees enhance their future employability (or even in what they might wish to be employed).

What about no more than four years at low cost, and only for individuals who are deemed likely to make good use of it (similar to the way scholarships are awarded, but on a larger scale)?