Occupy Discussion

[yovargas]

(eta - pretend this smiley is at the bottom of the last page. )

Eru - memes like those drive me bonkers. They're so counter-productive and are an enormous part of why I just can't stand following politics. It's such a massive oversimplification, ignoring all sorts of relevant facts, just to score some "gotcha!" points against the other guys. Most of my friends are liberal and so I see a lot of these OWS and 99% memes and a lot of it is this kind of crap and it just gives me a knee-jerk desire to oppose whatever those people are supporting.

[Lalaith]

I agree with you, yovi. And I greatly dislike it when either side of an issue demonizes the other. (I'm not saying that has happened here! I just mean in general with political discussions.)

Thank you, Prim. I have tried hard to stick this discussion out instead of avoiding it or leaving it. I typically don't have the heart anymore to get involved in them.

SirDennis, good luck to your son as he enters the police profession! I hope it goes well for him. (My husband is a police lieutenant and has been in the profession for nearly 18 years.)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Eru - memes like those drive me bonkers. They're so counter-productive and are an enormous part of why I just can't stand following politics. It's such a massive oversimplification, ignoring all sorts of relevant facts, just to score some "gotcha!" points against the other guys. Most of my friends are liberal and so I see a lot of these OWS and 99% memes and a lot of it is this kind of crap and it just gives me a knee-jerk desire to oppose whatever those people are supporting.

I had planned to respond to Eru's post when I had the opportunity to take the time to sort out my thoughts, but now I don't need to, because this is precisely, word for word, what I would have wanted to say.

[River]

On another note, I had a very brief discussion with S this morning about the pepper-spraying, mainly in the context of an Amazon meme. He was involved in the opposition movement in Serbia back in the '90s. He doesn't talk about it much (most of the former Yugoslavs I've met who were there in the 90's and old enough to remember what happened don't like to talk about it much), but, when I told him about the events at UC Davis, he told me they never used passive resistance in Belgrade as it was considered too dangerous.

[axordil]

If it were simply a matter of public health or safety, there are nonviolent means of dealing with the issues. Those are never the real reasons for quashing protests. Ever. As protests are by definition challenges to existing status quo, dispersing them is about the status quo reasserting itself the only way it evidently knows how: intimidation, coercion, force.

It's power, period. Everything else is a smokescreen.

[Lalaith]

And I definitely disagree with your absolute statements here, ax. I think they can sometimes be about what you're saying, but it is not always about power or suppressing an opposing viewpoint or whatever.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I agree with Lali. A good example is right here in Santa Cruz. Our local government is famously progressive; it made news, for instance, by being the first local government to condemn the Iraq invasion. However, that same government is in the process of having Occupy Santa Cruz be declared a public nuisance so that it can be shut down.

[axordil]

Believe what you will. There are of course inherently violent protests out there, ones requiring a proportionate response, but OWS hasn't been like that.

I saw an article today I found interesting, on the costs associated with the OWS protests in various cities. Not surprisingly, places that went with the all-police-all-the-time approach have spent a lot of money, in some cases money they didn't really have (see Oakland).

Other places, including Des Moines and (I'm happy and slightly surprised to say) St. Louis, have spent less than $10,000. No, I'm not leaving off zeroes.

http://goo.gl/c3N4k

Why is that? Sure, some protests are bigger than others, but not to that degree. Some cities decided to respond as if they were being invaded by Martians, and some cities didn't.

[yovargas]

Those are never the real reasons for quashing protests. Ever.

That strikes me as a pretty ridiculous over-generalization.

As protests are by definition challenges to existing status quo...

But not to all status quos everywhere...these protests have nothing to do with the "status quo" of the police force so I see no reason to think they have any special interest in disbursing it.

[Primula Baggins]

The police don't answer just to themselves, yov. They don't always get to choose what actions they take.

[vison]

If it were simply a matter of public health or safety, there are nonviolent means of dealing with the issues. Those are never the real reasons for quashing protests. Ever. As protests are by definition challenges to existing status quo, dispersing them is about the status quo reasserting itself the only way it evidently knows how: intimidation, coercion, force.

It's power, period. Everything else is a smokescreen.

I agree with axordil.

Nothing will ever be done until it is forced upon TPTB. No protest is ever useful or productive until it causes enough uproar. I do not mean "violence", although there are times when violence is the only alternative to silence. Is the The Western World at that point yet? No. But it could get there if no one listens.

The US, for one, is a nation founded by dissent: enough people were angry enough with TPTB that they actually went to war over it. Peaceful protests, such as dumping tea into Boston Harbour, did not accomplish the goal. Now, over 200 years later, TPTB are not much different from King George: the government is far removed from the people, it is uncaring and faceless and corrupt: or at least perceived that way.

Nearly the whole world is in a ferment of dissent and protest right now. Is this just some hippy-dippy thing, with professional agitators and troublemakers along for the ride? Are the uprisings in the Middle East completely disconnected from the anger and fear in the US and other western nations? Is there no universal longing for jobs and security and a measure of freedom?

The police are public servants, but do they serve the public? If the public is TPTB, then, yes, they do. It is entirely traditional and customary for TPTB to use the police to "keep order". The fact that the government might once have been "the protestors" is neither here nor there - once in power, they see things quite differently.

The ordinary police officer is in a hard place. He must do as he is required, but his heart might be with the protestors.

[River]

I daresay most police officers are in the 99%.

In other news, Occupy Alaska has not let record cold back them down. I gotta hand it to them. Camping in that kind of cold isn't just hard...it's outright dangerous.

[SirDennis]

In light of Ax's comments I found the following two news items relevant to this discussion:

First on the question of freedom of assembly, from the G20 summit at Toronto:

G20 case reveals 'largest ever' police spy operation:
RCMP collaborated with provincial and local police to monitor activists

...

Testimony previously under a publication ban describes how two undercover police officers — one male, one female — spent 18 months infiltrating southern Ontario community groups ahead of the June 26-27, 2010, gathering of world leaders.

...

"The important commonality is that these ideologies ... place these individuals and/or organizations at odds with the status quo and the current distribution of power in society."

Sourced today from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/201 ... ation.html

Second, the aftermath of the Arab Spring, widely held to be the model for OWS, from Cairo:

Egypt's military rulers faulted as clash toll rises

...

"Some of the images coming out of Tahrir, including the brutal beating of already subdued protesters, are deeply shocking, as are the reports of unarmed protesters being shot in the head," Pillay said. "There should be a prompt, impartial and independent investigation, and accountability for those found responsible for the abuses that have taken place should be ensured."

Read more here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011 ... -1123.html

And listen here as an Egyptian pastor claims that the new rulers are likely using a nerve agent on protesters rather than mere tear gas, and that police are aiming for the eyes with non-lethal bullets, which leaves a lasting if not mortal wound: http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplaye ... 2170316127

[vison]

The G20 summit is such a black eye on Canada that I try not to think about it because I'll just die of apoplexy.

[Primula Baggins]

So my brother (who lives in NYC) spent Thanksgiving Day cooking a huge batch of chowder at his East Village apartment with friends, then they all went down to Wall Street for the big Thanksgiving Day Occupy Wall Street potluck. The plan was to serve 2000 people. I haven't heard how it went yet, but OWS lives.

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

http://upwithchrishayes.msnbc.msn.com/_ ... reet-video


Plus the involvement of the Dpt of Homeland Security:

http://inthesetimes.com/uprising/entry/ ... y_attacks/

[SirDennis]

Thanks Tosh.

Appealing to what happened at G20 as a possible explanation of what might be going on at OWS could only ever be less than satisfying. The article at your second link, though still unconfirmed in its entirety, is more of a smoking gun.

These two paragraphs really stand out (emphasis added):

The existence of these types of conference calls could help to explain the near-universal brutal police response to Occupy. A "massive show of police force" describes the scene of every raid, whether talking about major cities like Oakland or New York City, or other smaller Occupy locations like Chapel Hill or Nashville. This also helps to explain why assault weaponry like tear gas canisters and rubber bullets have been being used as a first-response rather than defensive measure.

...

Occupy is now firmly planted in the "then they fight you" phase where city leaders, through arbitrary application of laws, raids, and police brutality hope to crush the movement for good. It speaks to the effectiveness of the group that this last stage has taken not only a full-scale, nationwide coordination of 18 city leaders, but also allegedly federal oversight. Not bad for a group of a couple hundred kids who went to Zuccotti without so much as a vague plan in their back pockets.

source: http://inthesetimes.com/uprising/entry/ ... y_attacks/

[Ghân-buri-Ghân]

The G20 summit is such a black eye on Canada that I try not to think about it because I'll just die of apoplexy.

vison, I am certain it was unintentional, but I wonder whether you noticed how unfortunate the juxtaposition of your response is to SirDennis's preceding posting?

...police are aiming for the eyes with non-lethal bullets, which leaves a lasting if not mortal wound.

Black eyes all round, huh?

[vison]

The G20 summit is such a black eye on Canada that I try not to think about it because I'll just die of apoplexy.

vison, I am certain it was unintentional, but I wonder whether you noticed how unfortunate the juxtaposition of your response is to SirDennis's preceding posting?

...police are aiming for the eyes with non-lethal bullets, which leaves a lasting if not mortal wound.

Black eyes all round, huh?

I didn't notice.

I won't change it, though.

[SirDennis]

The G20 summit is such a black eye on Canada that I try not to think about it because I'll just die of apoplexy.

vison, I am certain it was unintentional, but I wonder whether you noticed how unfortunate the juxtaposition of your response is to SirDennis's preceding posting?

...police are aiming for the eyes with non-lethal bullets, which leaves a lasting if not mortal wound.

Black eyes all round, huh?

I didn't notice.

I won't change it, though.

Well...

Doing so would suggest that you were sorry for a juxtaposition that hadn't happened yet. Reminds me of Minority Report.

As for aiming for the eye: some claim (in the podcast I linked to for instance) doing so is with intent to kill. The bullets, though rubber, at a certain range can penetrate the orbital bone and enter the victim's brain. Blindness and a black eye are the bare minimum that landing a shot can deliver.

I am not aware of any reports that police in NA deliberately aim for the eyes of protesters. Though that canister shot to the veteran's face, and the canister lob that followed obviously were aimed to inflict injury. (Imagine going off to war, believing you were fighting for Western values and freedoms, and survived your tour of duty. Back home you are then shot in the face by an agent of the state, while exercising those freedoms.)