Shooting of Congresswoman in Tucson

[vison]

I agree that inflamed rhetoric has no place in a general sense, but I think it is difficult to find much connection with the rhetoric and this event. This individual appears to be extremely disturbed, but not in a way that seems to be particularly susceptible to the tea party type message. I think he could have equally targeted anyone.

While that's surely possible, it seems far too much of a coincidence to me that Giffords happened to be one of the people "targeted" by Palin.

Except that there is absolutely no evidence that suggests that this crazy gunman was influenced by that. It may still turn out to be the case, but I'm not going to leap to that conclusion without there being some evidence to suggest it.

Whether or no, I hope that woman watches her mouth in future. I hope she is frightened right now, wondering if she might have encouraged this guy.

[River]

Word on the intertubes is Palin's crosshairs website was taken down within hours of the attack on Giffords. Even if the attack on Giffords was not linked to Palin's foolish rhetoric, it still looks really really bad and clearly Palin or one of her staffers had the wisdom to recognize that. Maybe the other pundits out there will as well.

Given the laws in Arizona, there were probably persons in the crowd who were carrying guns. Which proves what I have often said: in the heat of the moment, when people are panicking and there is gunfire, almost no civilian would know what to do or when to do it.

I saw a post on another forum once, written by an active member of the military, saying much the same thing. It actually takes a lot of training to be able to respond to a situation like the one in Arizona - you basically have to train adrenaline rush and that's a question of endless repetition and lots and lots of practice. Most civilian gun-owners don't have the time for it or they just don't understand the commitment they have to make to get good with a gun.

In any event, it wasn't someone else with a gun who stopped the guy. He was tackled by two people who took him down with their bare hands.

[Primula Baggins]

Vison

The gun advocates will counter with if there had been a person with a gun they could have taken the guy out and not as many would have died.

Given the laws in Arizona, there were probably persons in the crowd who were carrying guns. Which proves what I have often said: in the heat of the moment, when people are panicking and there is gunfire, almost no civilian would know what to do or when to do it. Very likely there would have been more injuries or deaths, not fewer. There is also the spectre of Jack Ruby grinning up from hell.

His handgun had an extended magazine and he was firing very rapidly, just spraying shots without really aiming after the first two. Somebody in peak combat training who was armed might have been able to return fire. It isn't surprising that nobody did. I heard one eyewitness who was at the site say there were only 20 to 25 people at the event. This guy wounded or killed 18 of them within a few seconds.

[Dave_LF]

DHS says:

[S]trong suspicion is being directed at AmRen / American Renaissance. Suspect is possibly linked to this group. (through videos posted on his myspace and YouTube account.). The group’s ideology is anti government, anti immigration, anti ZOG (Zionist Occupational Government), anti Semitic. Gabrielle Gifford is the first Jewish female elected to such a high position in the US government. She was also opposite this group’s ideology when it came to immigration debate.

[Primula Baggins]

Link, please?

[Dave_LF]

There are several, but it seems to have started at Fox. Here's theirs:
http://gretawire.blogs.foxnews.com/late ... he-target/

and

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/ ... ganization

[Primula Baggins]

Here's what I just read at TPM (link; no specific link to the story but it's top left on this page at the moment).

. . . Fox has walked back its initial description of the memo as coming from the Department of Homeland Security. Now it uses a labored description: "a law enforcement memo based on information provided by DHS."

That's not the same thing as a DHS memo, and it suggests somewhat less certainty about whether Loughner's reference to the group in his internet ramblings is getting special attention from law enforcement.

[Dave_LF]

When I posted that link, I resisted the urge to say something like "but since it's from Fox, we can't be too sure". Fox also reported yesterday that Giffords had been killed.

[Primula Baggins]

That seemed to be pretty widely reported. I didn't hear of it until it was already known that she was alive, but blogs I've looked at generally have an initial report that she was killed, followed by a correction. CNN was saying they had reported her death initially as well, and correcting the report.

Honestly, with this kind of chaotic event, with panicked eyewitnesses and victims being swept away to hospitals before it's known how they are or even whether they're alive, I think any news organization deserves some slack.

However, the "memo" mistake is a bit bush league, given that it would be significant news if properly sourced and checked.

[Infidel]

I agree that inflamed rhetoric has no place While that's surely possible, it seems far too much of a coincidence to me that Giffords happened to be one of the people "targeted" by Palin.

Except that there is absolutely no evidence that suggests that this crazy gunman was influenced by that. It may still turn out to be the case, but I'm not going to leap to that conclusion without there being some evidence to suggest it.

One might as well suggest that it was Markos (Daily Kos) Moulitsas target list and bullseye, on which Giffords was featured: http://hillbuzz.files.wordpress.com/201 ... -33-pm.png

Word on the intertubes is Palin's crosshairs website was taken down within hours of the attack on Giffords.

Word on the intertubes is not quite accurate per Mediaite, which reported similarly at first:
Update: Sarah Palin and Daily Kos Have Not “Scrubbed” Posts With “Target” Imagery of Giffords’ District
http://www.mediaite.com/online/sarahpac ... t-remains/

[Túrin Turambar]

I agree that inflamed rhetoric has no place in a general sense, but I think it is difficult to find much connection with the rhetoric and this event. This individual appears to be extremely disturbed, but not in a way that seems to be particularly susceptible to the tea party type message. I think he could have equally targeted anyone.

While that's surely possible, it seems far too much of a coincidence to me that Giffords happened to be one of the people "targeted" by Palin.

Except that there is absolutely no evidence that suggests that this crazy gunman was influenced by that. It may still turn out to be the case, but I'm not going to leap to that conclusion without there being some evidence to suggest it.

I agree. Given that, from what I've heard, this guy's Youtube videos involve him running around the desert dressed in garbage bags, holding conversations with an imaginary bird on his shoulder, ranting about fiat currency and burning the American flag, I think that his motivation probably won't make sense to anyone but himself. Plus it was a mass shooting rather thann a targeted assassination.

[River]

I caught the story right as it shifted, so the first version I read was she'd been killed and then, like, two minutes later, it came out she was in surgery. I think what happened was, because she was shot in the head at close range, everyone was just assuming she was dead and it took ~ 3 hours for the correct story to come out.

The latest casualty count I saw was 14 injured, 6 dead. I have no idea how many were dead at the scene and how many died at the hospital, but that incident would have overwhelmed the Rochester, NY metro area's EMS when I was there and the Tucson metro is about the same size. I don't blame them if they were having a hard time getting all the details out to the press in the initial hours.

[eborr]

I don't want to say too much on US gun laws in the consequence of this shooting, the man could have had a molotov cocktail or something else, just to re-infofce the comment that anyone without specialst firearms training with a weapon in that situation would have probably resulted in more collatoral damage, and of course great praise to those brave people who dealt with him.

[Dave_LF]

It was a targeted assassination. All official and eyewitness reports agree that he made a beeline to Giffords and shot her first. And it's now being reported that documents with her name next to "my assassination" have been recovered from his house:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40988567/ns ... nd_courts/

[Hachimitsu]

Vison

The gun advocates will counter with if there had been a person with a gun they could have taken the guy out and not as many would have died.

Given the laws in Arizona, there were probably persons in the crowd who were carrying guns. Which proves what I have often said: in the heat of the moment, when people are panicking and there is gunfire, almost no civilian would know what to do or when to do it. Very likely there would have been more injuries or deaths, not fewer. There is also the spectre of Jack Ruby grinning up from hell.

Thanks to the both of you for pointing this out. The idea that a gun in the hands of a civilian could stop a massacre is utterly ridiculous. It's never happened. I do hope some people in power reconsider their position, now that a congresswoman and a judge have been shot.

[Infidel]

Thanks to the both of you for pointing this out. The idea that a gun in the hands of a civilian could stop a massacre is utterly ridiculous. It's never happened. I do hope some people in power reconsider their position, now that a congresswoman and a judge have been shot.

"Never" covers a lot of territory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting


Gunman kills 2, is slain by Reno man
By SUSAN VOYLES May 25, 2008
Reno Gazette-Journal
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=366291
or here:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/archi ... 44499.html
(two articles regarding the same incident at second link, the Reno Gazette-Journal no longer has the articles online).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Mid ... e_shooting

[Hachimitsu]

Infidel you are the first person to ever actually post how a civillian having a gun could stop someone. Every other time people people have brought up that argument (even on the news) no brings up incidents like these. So thank you.

But in both those cases each rescuer had time to get their gun. In case one the perpetrator was reloading and in the second case the perpetrator got in a car to drive away (althoughh he made no effort to conceal his weapon there was not enough time to get a gun before he had killed 2 people).

In the case of the Tuscon incident there really wasn't time to retreive a weapon. Since there were only 2 cases of rescuing I still am not big on people carrying weapons, at the very least not weapons that as Cerin said fire that many bullets that fast.

[Túrin Turambar]

It was a targeted assassination. All official and eyewitness reports agree that he made a beeline to Giffords and shot her first. And it's now being reported that documents with her name next to "my assassination" have been recovered from his house:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40988567/ns ... nd_courts/

Oh, certainly, I mean that Griffods was obviously the target. But it also had the element of a random shooting spree - it would have been different if he had have shot her and her alone.

[Infidel]

Infidel you are the first person to ever actually post how a civillian having a gun could stop someone. Every other time people people have brought up that argument (even on the news) no brings up incidents like these. So thank you.

It took about 2 minutes on google.

[narya]

It's easy to imagine arming everyone with a gun so that the "good guys" can kill the "bad guys" when the need arises. That's the quick, simplistic answer. We can all sit back and feel secure and do nothing.

Much harder to imagine repairing the system so that marginalized are recognized, compassionately helped, kept in the circle of support rather than alienated, and not allowed to buy weapons that have the sole purpose of killing lots of people in quick succession. It's the latter dream that I work for. It takes small efforts every day and I will never see the results of the disaster averted. I will never know if the person I helped was nudged to a different course ever so slightly. But I can hope so.