Wikileaks

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On balance, is Wikileaks?

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Total votes: 13

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eborr
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Post by eborr »

You have got to the nub of it Dennis and expressed it far more eloquently than I could have.

The problem is that we increasingly have a class of professional politicians who view politics as a career, which hopefully will end in a role earning obscene amounts of money as an advisor to corporate bodies. Whichever way they colour themselves until such times as they decide to cash in there sole motivation is to preserve their position. This naturally leads to intrigue and subtefuge. When you have Rael Politik at the expense of honour and integrity, then you realyy want the voters to know as little as you can get away with. Take the case of the bandit govt. in Kosova, described as brave freedom fighters by all and sundry, their only motivation was to get the lions share of revenue from the heroin trade.
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Post by Holbytla »

Just as an FYI, these "leaks" were due to be published as has been many other documents.

Granted they would have been edited to protect participants and I don't believe that we would have had full knowledge of every action, but I do believe that this information would have been forthcoming at some point.

Has it occured to anyone that these leaks are a benison to American security? Anyone ever hear the phrase, "plead guilty to the lesser charge" in order to not reveal your full hand. Is it possible that this is the tip of the ice berg and while the info would be better off secret to the people involved, it is far better off that this info was leaked and the real secrets remain secret? Area 51 was one of the better things that ever happened to the US government.
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Post by River »

eborr wrote:Take the case of the bandit govt. in Kosova, described as brave freedom fighters by all and sundry, their only motivation was to get the lions share of revenue from the heroin trade.
And organ smuggling (NB: there are more articles about this in English available at the B92 site; I just grabbed the first two I spotted). That's a newly breaking scandal that is being pursued. According to S, Serbian bloggers have, with characteristic black humor, dubbed this particular bit of organized crime Organs without Borders.

Also, a link to a non-Serbian news site.

Actually, their motivation was more than black marketeering and the situation in Kosovo is one where it's hard to pick a side to feel good about. The majority of the Albanian population there was, when it was still part of Yugoslavia and then Serbia, illegal. Yet they were also the majority ethinic group in the region and they'd basically taken over the local university and most of the local government institutions. In the 80's, the Yugoslavs tried to do something about that, but they did it wrong and a guerrilla movement got going and things really came to a head in the late 90's. As we all know, fighting guerrillas with a conventional army is difficult at best and bad things happened to the civilian population. The Kosovar Albanians also won the PR game, which, given how the world at large was feeling about Serbia at the time, was about as surprising as frost on a cold morning. It's a terrible mess.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

nerdanel wrote:What we really need is a leaked, exact copy of the police allegations. Where's Wikileaks when you need them.
The police report has now been leaked. I haven't read the full three page article in the Times yet, but it appears to bear out aspects of both sides.

Swedish Police Report Details Case Against Assange
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Interesting. I have to admit that Assange comes across as a bit strange, even for a Queenslander. Hell, even for a North Queenslander.

Still, his unwillingness to outright deny the charges is telling. And if the report is true, then I imagine that he is certainly guilty of some sort of sexual offence.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Lawyers cry foul over leak of Julian Assange sex-case papers

The irony of Assange's representatives complaining about the leak of the police report is too rich.
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Post by River »

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Post by nerdanel »

Bjorn Hurtig, Mr Assange's Swedish lawyer, said he would lodge a formal complaint to the authorities and ask them to investigate how such sensitive police material leaked into the public domain.
This just wins an entire Internet, it is so much of the awesome. Has Mr Hurtig ever heard of Wikileaks?

(also, shouldn't Assange (and by his extension, his representatives) be championing the free flow of information and Truth? LOL.)
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Post by Hachimitsu »

You said it Nel!!
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Post by vison »

Governments have no right to privacy. Individuals do.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

But a heck of lot of individuals have had private information about them revealed by wikileaks; arguably much more dangerous private information than the "leak" of this police report.
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Post by elfshadow »

Yes, as Voronwë said, the individuals who make up the government have a right to privacy even if the government as a whole does not. We hear the most about leaks regarding high-level players such as Secretary Clinton and the president of Libya, but let's not forget about the many minor diplomats and security agents who have been affected more drastically by the leaks.
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Post by vison »

If you are talking about the private lives of people, that's one thing. If you are talking about their work as government employees, that's another.

I don't take the same view of this matter as you do, obviously. I also think that these leaks are going to lead to the long-wished-for "state" control of the internet.
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Post by eborr »

And the state control in the "free" world will be managed by the usual insidious means, the collective power of the media, the courts and the financial systems will be used the preserve the establishment and allow it to continue it's wrong doing.
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Post by nerdanel »

vison wrote:If you are talking about the private lives of people, that's one thing. If you are talking about their work as government employees, that's another.

I don't take the same view of this matter as you do, obviously. I also think that these leaks are going to lead to the long-wished-for "state" control of the internet.
You think that the leak of a police report is going to lead to state control over the entire Internet? That sounds like hyperbole to me. (ETA ... or are you saying that the larger Wikileaks issue may in time lead to increased state control over the Internet? That seems like a more reasonable position to me.)

As I just wrote elsewhere:

Assange has been willing to leak information without distilling in any way based on what harm it might cause, and to whom... - in the name of truth and transparency. As for Assange's "right to privacy," I'm not sure why the criminal allegations that underlie a public criminal trial that requires an international extradition are now Assange's "private" information. This is particularly true because of the rampant misinformation swirling around the media about exactly what the women in question had alleged - misinformation that many people (including Assange's legal team) had used to vilify and ridicule the women in question, as debated in this very thread. I would think that Assange and his pro-truth/transparency camp would celebrate the increased clarity that these leaks have provided to the international community on a matter of international concern.

However, I don't think it's necessary to demonstrate that there is some manner of equivalence between the respective leaks. The reason that I think this leak is justifiable is very simple: Assange's legal team was attempting to interfere with the justice system by impugning the integrity of the alleged victims while implying that the police report supported their position. Like so. And so. If the privacy and secrecy of the police report was so important, Assange's counsel should have had the discretion not to comment on it, let alone exploit it. Under those circumstances, it assuredly furthers both truth and fairness for the public to have increased access to the report itself, rather than only to Assange's counsel's spin on it.
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh

When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Exactly. I couldn't put it any better.
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Post by elfshadow »

I agree with nel completely. Also, at least in the United States, isn't there some degree of publicity to police reports and arrest records? I don't know too much about this but certainly newspapers seem to be able to get access to a lot of information about criminal proceedings.
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Post by Hachimitsu »

I am going to say I agree with Nel.

I also agree with Eborr's comments on state control of the media.

I am going to say that while I do not think, it's a the greatest thing that the police record was leaked, in this case it was bound to happen. Assange and his lawyers had to know that. One does not embarrass the US government and not expect them to try and incinerate you.

Also there is a bit of a feeling of "don't dish it, if you can't take it". While with the leaks I still feel are important (lots of people seem to forget that many people innocent or not, were sent to get get tortured, which was directly against laws the US government had made for itself), Assange seemed.. to get a little arrogant.

His comments on wanting Hilary Clinton to resign had an air of arrogance and a bit of lack of understanding that it is her job to do/sign off on certain things even if she isn't 100% in lock step with some agenda. (One of the leaks has improved my opinion of Condoleeza Rice and I must say before the leak, that opinion was pretty low.)

In terms of the case being leaked it seems at least there is some clarity on the allegations. To me it's at least a little better then all the rumours that were swirling around before. I was very suspicious on why clarity was lacking. Were (possibly multiple) parties trying to buy time to cook something up with these allegations and that is why things were so unclear? Were certain trying to find something in the police report that was not there?
Now at least we know what the police report says, there is a little clarity on that part in this whole confusing mess. That does not mean the police report is unbiased, truthful etc, but now we know at least a little something concrete.

Do I think it's fair that the police report was leaked? No, but considering many people are basically fighting for public opinion I am not surprised it happened.

Oh and has anyone heard comments from Assange's female lawyer? I have heard some of her comments on one particular podcast and her comments about the victims are not quite as demonizing as the male lawyer's comments seems to be. But maybe that is why she did the interview on that particular podcast in light of it's audience. I did watch CBC news the other day and they displayed blurred pictures of the victims. (Don't like that.)

I am going to say I am quite mixed on this whole entire subject (I never voted in the poll), I still think what happened with the leaks needed to happened. Maybe not in such an uncensored fashion, and maybe not by these particular personalities, but I think something had to be exposed. Now that quite a few illegal things have been laid bare in black and white (even though many people already knew), something can be done about it.

For the poll, some days I am thinking 50%Saints and 50% sinners. Other times I am thinking 51% Saints, 49% Sinners.

Oh and L_M thank you for your opinion on Assange as a Queenslander. I was actually going to ask if this type of bluntness and openness that Assange talks about is a cultural norm for his region. (It was sort of hinted at in one news report I heard.)

Has anyone heard on any funding for the young soldier who provided the the information to Wikileaks? I had heard there were promises either from Assange or wikileaks on paying for his legal defense, but that has not seem to have come to fruition. (At least not yet.)

(As a complete Osgiliation this Canadian spelling dictionary add on I just got, has some serious weaknesses. I am sorry if my spelling seems worse).
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Post by vison »

nerdanel wrote:
vison wrote:If you are talking about the private lives of people, that's one thing. If you are talking about their work as government employees, that's another.

I don't take the same view of this matter as you do, obviously. I also think that these leaks are going to lead to the long-wished-for "state" control of the internet.
You think that the leak of a police report is going to lead to state control over the entire Internet? That sounds like hyperbole to me. (ETA ... or are you saying that the larger Wikileaks issue may in time lead to increased state control over the Internet? That seems like a more reasonable position to me.)
I meant the larger Wikileaks issue, of course.

I do think that some governments, probably all, see this as a golden opportunity to take action against the freedom of the Internet. I believe they are exaggerating the harm the leaks have done - or have possibly done - to that end.

Whether they can exert that control and maintain it is a good question. But when has that ever stopped any government from attempting to control information? Most governments regard ALL information in the same light: government property not available to the citizenry.

The demonization of Mr. Assange is a sight to see. Maybe he did misbehave sexually or even commit sex crimes. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with Wikileaks. As I said before, if he hadn't offended the US, who would ever have heard of this guy and his trouble with the laws in Sweden? The same government that committed crimes against its OWN laws, never mind international laws, has its knickers in a twist over an obscure geek and his erstwhile dates. Is anyone surprised?
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

These two stories in the Washington Post and New York Times (both brought to my attention by posts by Gandalf's Mother at TORC) demonstrate just how dangerous and irreponsible Assange and Wikileaks are:

WikiLeaks gives dangerous ammunition to a tyrant

U.S. Sends Warning to People Named in Cable Leaks
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