What's allowable in Advertising? (and related issues)

[JewelSong]

Mith, yes, the movie is certainly not a childrens' movie. But as you say, kssing and what is depicted in the wedding night and even the brothel scenes is not what made it rated "R". It was the nipples.


I don't mind people looking at me with appreciation either. And I would just like to say that if anyone would like to look at me as a sex object, go right ahead. It's been too damn long.

[Maria]

I just had a massive self realization as a result of this thread.

When I said I wasn't from the same culture Jewel was describing- it was true! I was raised in a counter culture environment which almost by definition means the values are going to be set in opposition to mainstream culture.

That's why I don't *get* what so many of you see as obvious moral values. The values I learned as a child are often quite different. I'm not rebelling against society when I claim non-understanding of a point or being deliberately obtuse, I literally just don't get it. Not in my gut. I can memorize the mainstream rules and behave in a way that doesn't get me in trouble, but I don't really believe them deep down.

I did rebel against that upbringing when I was in college. How does one rebel against such a permissive culture??? Gently. Join the Army and marry young. I assure you my parents were appalled on both points.

So, I'm gong to have to watch myself. What seems to me to be an obvious truth straight from my soul, could quite often be the product of my upbringing. I hadn't realized before that I was raised in a counter culture and the implications of that are a little surprising to me.

[axordil]

What seems to me to be an obvious truth straight from my soul, could quite often be the product of my upbringing.

You speak for most of humanity.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I added "(and related issues)" to the thread title to accommodate the extended nature of the discussion, which I think is closely related enough to the original topic to make a thread split inappropriate.

Another issue has arisen in this thread that we are going to address elsewhere.

[Maria]

What's the new issue?

[Primula Baggins]

I'd say there are several—what is sexism, who defines it, what is sexy, who defines it, what is sexual, who defines it. . . .

The usual rococo ramifications that happen when you get together a whole group of people who tend to run off at the mind.

[Frelga]

Oh. I thought it was the nude moot.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

What's the new issue?

To the extent that you are asking about the other issue that I said we would address elsewhere, see the new global announcement.

[Maria]

edit: OK, Voronwë, I see it now.

I was thinking maybe something on the lines of psychological results of trying to fit into an alien culture.

It was the nude m00t suggestion that got me thinking about the counter culture thing. I had such a strong initial negative reaction that I got to wondering why? I was raised to where such a thing shouldn't be a big deal---but the flip side of that was that I had to live in both worlds back then. I had to deal with being thought of as alien and possibly dangerous and definitely not likeable by my schoolmates. The locals thought my parents and their friends had started a godless hippy commune back there in the woods and they did not like it. (It wasn't a commune, everyone owned their acreage separately. They just had protective covenents added to the deeds to prevent clearcutting and the like.)

I did not like that feeling of being in hostile territory- and my gut reaction is to never, ever be that vulnerable again. I used to flinch when my teenagers told me they described me as a hippy to their friends, and wonder what gave it away. I certainly never used the word before in front of them, but they decided apparently from history classes at school that that was pretty much what I am.

I am not that, not anymore. But some things get an automatic response that I dont even think about. Di's idea here that I might wear a bra at home literally shocked me. That's almost as unthinkable as wearing shoes when I don't have to. My baseline response is, "if it's natural it's good, if it's artificial, it isn't." There are, of course, exceptions to that, but they are few and far between.

Sexual attraction is natural, therefore ads emphasizing that quality are silly but harmless. There are plenty of other silly ads out there. A VW ad comes to mind- where they catapult a car at the end of it. http://www.splendad.com/ads/show/1358-V ... V-Catapult What in the world does that have to do with the quality of VWs? And yet, it's one of my favorite commercials of all time. Unpimp the ride....

[MithLuin]

Humor is great for advertising, even if it sometimes falls flat or confuses people.

As far as the 'people are looking at me!' sentiment in the thread, I don't mind people looking at me nor do I mind if they happen to like what they see. But sexual harassment does happen, and that is why there are many situations where clothes are needed in public to protect from more than the weather. Also...I teach biology to teenagers. As awkward as it can be to discuss how plants reproduce sexually when they think everything is snicker-worthy, it would be a lot more awkward if I had to do it without wearing a shirt.

I don't think it would be too easy to find people who thought it weird if spouses were naked if they were alone together inside/in private. Or weird to be naked if you were alone (again, in private). The question is just how far you can extend that. Outside, but in private/on your property? Not alone, but just with family? Within a group that is all the same gender (and perhaps age)? Within a like-minded community where such things are acceptable? In a public space where it is socially acceptable? I think the difference is the expectation that people would behave appropriately, and in so much as they do, you're fine.

I don't mind public decency laws, because I think that there has to be a law to prevent the guy in the trench coat from walking around exposing himself to people in public (or at least allows police to react when he does so) [Two minutes into this clip from Hairspray]. I imagine there are ways of writing the laws so they aren't unnecessarily restrictive (or discriminatory between men and women). I don't think a woman who is sweating after working on a hot day is in the same category as a flasher if she removes her shirt. Nor a woman who is breastfeeding. Many places do have exceptions for that, at least!

But I am also resigned to the fact that there are many different cultural expectations out there, and you can't meet them all. If you happen to be countercultural, or living in an alien culture, you probably will have to choose between acceptance and ignoring what you deem to be silly rules. For instance, if I went to the Horn of Africa, I would be very unlikely to take form-fitting pants in my luggage, not because I think there's anything wrong with a woman wearing pants, but because it's my understanding that a woman's backside there is treated a lot the same way her breasts are here - and so I probably wouldn't want to draw attention to that part of my anatomy in public, as parts of my current wardrobe undoubtedly would (if only by comparison to what most women wear there). It's not just modesty - it's being aware of what is appropriate. I would never wear jeans to a black church, but I have no qualms wearing fairly casual clothes to the church where I grew up - it's insulting in one context and at least tolerable in the other. This is even assuming they're both Catholic churches, so there's not even a religious difference behind the differing expectations; it's simply cultural. (My mom, of course, will say that I shouldn't wear jeans to church. Ever.)

[Cerin]

And for more than 1,000 years in China, a woman's foot was considered the sexiest part of her body.

I think that applied only to feet made tiny by the horrific process of binding, wherein the feet of young girls were deliberately deformed by being broken, turned under and tightly wrapped. It was excruciatingly painful to walk on bound feet, so the women were effectively disabled by the process. It's shocking to me to think that the practice was outlawed only a century ago.

[Frelga]

But sexual harassment does happen, and that is why there are many situations where clothes are needed in public to protect from more than the weather.

Would it be sensible, then, to walk around naked but armed?

[JewelSong]

Would it be sensible, then, to walk around naked but armed?

Where would you keep the gun?

[Primula Baggins]

You'd definitely need an "open carry" law.

[Maria]

Would it be sensible, then, to walk around naked but armed?

Where would you keep the gun?

Wherever Capt. Jack kept his in that Dr. Who episode where the robots were having him try on new outfits and in the middle of a change decided to kill him while he was naked. He produced a gun from seemingly nowhere....


I don't like people looking at me if I'm totally covered from head to foot with clothing. It's not the dressed or undressed aspect that bothers me, but the *looking*. When we lived in Germany, we went to "nude night" at a local swimming pool a couple of times, and I was completely OK with it, because the people there didn't *look* at you. They'd see but not look, if you know what I mean.

When my mother in law visited us over there, she and I and the baby were walking through a park in Frankfurt once and I'd forgotten some people sunbathe there topless- and she was completely shocked when a woman stood up and stretched and laid down again on her other side. I literally begged my mother in law not to notice. It's so impolite! I couldn't stand the thought of her making a scene about it.

It is possible for people to behave in a civilized fashion about nudity. It's also quite common for people to behave in uncivilized manner in reaction to any sort of glimpse "forbidden" flesh. I can't help thinking it's the forbidden part that's creating the problem.

[Frelga]

I can see a great opportunity in decorative gun belts. Beaded, embroidered, with a few functional pockets.

But seriously, the idea that clothing is necessary to prevent sexual assault strikes me as entirely misguided. For one thing, it's a runt of the same famy as "she asked for it" - blaming the victim - although I am confident that this was not Mith's intention. For another, it's not how things work. To the contrary, it is what's hidden that excites. Bare breasts, where they commonplace, are far less inflaming than ankles where they are routinely covered.

I suspect that the main reason we have laws against public exposure is for business reasons. If women went around nekkid, how could companies make money by selling their almost naked images?

ETA: x-posted with Maria.

[MithLuin]

Kiera Knightly is similarly ridiculously armed at the beginning of the third Pirates of the Caribbean movie. In the same scene, Orlando Bloom can hold his breath for an implausibly long time. It's funny (and meant to be)

I agree, Maria - it's the looking that is the problem, and wearing clothes doesn't (alone) solve it. While some gawking is likely due to the novelty/forbidden aspect, I don't think everyone walking around naked all the time would mean that no one would stare.

For the same reason that being fully clothed doesn't mean that no one stares.

[vison]

*sigh*

We are made to look at each other. It's how the species reproduces - it's called "sexual reproduction" and it involves, you know, sex partners. Eggs and sperm? That sort of thing. The looking is instinctive. It is not wrong, unless someone says it's wrong.

But sexual harassment does happen, and that is why there are many situations where clothes are needed in public to protect from more than the weather.

MithLuin, this is, indeed, like saying "she asked for it", when a woman does something, like "dressing provocatively", "dancing", and then gets attacked and sexually assaulted. Sexual harrassment is not "triggered" by sexy dressing, it's a miserable power trip. I experienced it as a young woman working in an office, and I assure you I was always "modestly" dressed and never wore makeup and was certainly NOT flirtatious.

In the old Japanese society the most erotic part of a woman was her neck. Kimono were designed to tease and tantalize the viewer with carefully limited sights of a woman's neck.

The mutilated Chinese foot, the lip plates of some Africans, the African tribesmen who put on makeup and dance in front of prospective brides - all "sexy" and weird, to us.

The more covered up women are required to be, the more their society regards them as pretty well only sex objects. Ask any western woman who ever lived and worked in Saudi Arabia.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

But sexual harassment does happen, and that is why there are many situations where clothes are needed in public to protect from more than the weather.

Would it be sensible, then, to walk around naked but armed?

I'm sorry, but sexual harassment is no joking matter (and this is particularly disturbing to me given the facts of one of my recent cases).

[Maria]

Sexual harrassment is not "triggered" by sexy dressing, it's a miserable power trip. I experienced it as a young woman working in an office, and I assure you I was always "modestly" dressed and never wore makeup and was certainly NOT flirtatious.

Do you think it's an air of vulnerability that get's women sexually harrassed? We've all heard stories of women in the military getting various levels of sexual harassment- but I never experienced it. Never even came close. I've always assumed it was my ability to put forth an air of "I'm your sibling or daughter". But maybe it was more than that, if such things are indeed a power trip. I'd already had karate classes and had absolutely no fear that anyone could overpower me (probably unjustified-but I didn't know that then!) I was deadly serious and a strict rule follower. There was no doubt in my mind that if I was ever approached inappropriately, I'd kick their a** and then report them. Perhaps that showed in my demeanor? Or perhaps I was always stationed with decent men? Anyway, that's something I never considered before- that men prone to sexual harassment will target women who won't or can't fight back. Hmmmm.....