What's allowable in Advertising? (and related issues)

[axordil]

men prone to sexual harassment will target women who won't or can't fight back

I would assume this to be almost self-evident, and operating at a subconscious level whether it's also consciously done or not.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It doesn't always work that way, but that is generally true of most of the worst cases. However, I've handled a number of cases of sexual harassment of very strong-willed women.

In my experience, it is dangerous to make any generalizations in this area, other than that the vast majority of sexual harassment cases are men harassing women (with the next highest category being men harassing other men).

[nerdanel]

men prone to sexual harassment will target women who won't or can't fight back

I would assume this to be almost self-evident, and operating at a subconscious level whether it's also consciously done or not.

So if you're being sexually harassed, you have the additional reassurance of knowing that it's because you can't or won't fight back. If only you were a strong woman, you wouldn't have to deal with such things.

[Primula Baggins]

I can think of plenty of reasons why strong women would be more likely to be harassed, especially by men who feel threatened by them.

[Maria]

Hey, I was just throwing the idea out there! I don't know why- in an environment notorious for sexual harrassment, I never saw any. It must have been something about me. Or I was just lucky. There's an awful lot of that in my life.

[nerdanel]

But I feel it's such a self-validating thing for any of us to do. And many women do it - I think because victim "blaming" of any sort makes us feel safer. If something that they voluntarily did, or one of their traits, contributed to their victimization -- and we don't share that trait or do that thing, then good for us, it couldn't (or is less likely to) happen to us. Meanwhile, the woman who has become a victim also suffers a negative judgment -- here, that she not only couldn't/wouldn't fight back, but she clearly projected that image in a way that a harasser was able to exploit.

Similarly, many women will talk about how women who have been sexually assaulted likely took steps to put themselves at risk - how they dressed, where they walked, where they socialized. 'Cause if we're not dressing, walking, or socializing like they were -- then hey, we're just that much safer. (And if only they'd wised up sooner, they could've been too.)

[axordil]

V-man, Prim:

I submit that cases of harassment are more likely to surface when a woman "fights back," and that strong women are more likely to do so. There's an awful lot of harassment that never gets reported, or worse perhaps, never even registers as harassment with the victim. It's this "subterranean" kind I find most insidious--and most likely to be focused on targets who don't even know they CAN fight back, or that there's something to fight back against.

That doesn't translate to harassment happening because of the victim (and nel, I must ask you not to put words to that effect in my mouth). Someone who is prone to harassment is likely to harass, period, especially because a lot of the perpetrators don't believe what they're doing is wrong. They may understand they'll get in trouble if caught--but that's not the same thing, is it?

[nerdanel]

Ax -- thank you for clarifying. Your most recent post is much clearer than the original (and before, I wasn't replying only to you).

[axordil]

Understood, nel. Not a problem.

[Maria]

Nel,
So you think it's wrong to analyze what went wrong and what went right as far as crime avoidance goes? When I was in karate class, we were advised to keep an eye on everyone around us when we walked down the the street. To avoid looking like a potential victim. And to prepare to hurt and flee at the first sign of violence.

By knowing these things, and telling them to others- does that make me judgemental of those who do get mugged? That I'm blaming the victim for not taking the precautions I did?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Ax, that's a good point, and one that unfortunately I can't really address professionally. I can only deal with the people who come to me for help. I will say that of the two major sexual harassment cases that I took on recently, one involves a strong woman who fought back for years, and the second involves a vulnerable woman who finally found the strength to do something about it. (The third ongoing sexual harassment case that I am currently dealing with is a rather bizarre man on man case.)

[Frelga]

But sexual harassment does happen, and that is why there are many situations where clothes are needed in public to protect from more than the weather.

Would it be sensible, then, to walk around naked but armed?

I'm sorry, but sexual harassment is no joking matter (and this is particularly disturbing to me given the facts of one of my recent cases).

I was dead serious as you may have noticed if you read my follow up post.

[yovargas]

nel,
While I understand the emotional underpinning to your last couple posts, I don't think it is fair to jump there. To take a different kind of power-tripping example, a school bully will most likely pick on the weaker or smaller kids. If those weaker or smaller kids learned how to physically fight back, they'd be less likely to get picked on. But neither of those obvious, self-evident observations makes it in any way the victims "fault". No one should ever get bullied, harrassed, or assaulted ever ever. To observe that perpetrators may be drawn to certain characteristics is not to excuse them or place the blame anywhere but on their shoulders.

[MithLuin]

To go back to my original comment that sparked some of this - *I'm* not going to be comfortable foregoing clothing in situations where I know eyes aren't going to be respectful of me. That's why I spoke of clothing as 'protection' - there's nothing wrong with veiling parts of your body you don't want people staring at, which is not the same thing as saying it's somehow your fault if they stare anyway. Nor does veiling get rid of interest, even if it does block the view.

Also, I am someone who has a tendency to stare. I have to consciously remind myself that it's not polite, and make an effort to avert the eyes. I don't think it's a sexual thing - I don't stare because I'm turned on, I stare at people for the same reason I read everything that is left laying around (even if it is occasionally a breach of privacy) - I have an insatiable curiosity.

I remember how guys were when I was in high school. At the time, I was probably too shy to come right out and say 'my eyes are up here.' Nowadays...well, I probably would call someone on staring, especially if it were a student. But I'm also just as likely to discretely point out to the female student that 'her girls are out'. My goal in doing that is prevent further embarassment to her, and the quickest way seems to be to alert her to the situation. That doesn't mean she's the one who did something wrong, though - he's the one who gets the 'teacher death glare'.

[axordil]

teacher death glare

[River]

Can you reduce them to quivering blobs of jelly with your voice? That's so unnerviing.

[Teremia]

In my first job as a professor, I was harrassed by a male undergraduate. He turned in love poems instead of papers, and when I told him that was entirely unacceptable, he said, "You know you like it."



It was as if he was saying, "WELL, you think your status is higher than mine just because you're a professor -- WELL, but at the end of the day you're just a girl, and I'm MALE!!"

And also I was furious because it "worked" as a power play: I was actually frightened of him. And so I did lose power. (Even if I didn't let him see that he had scared me. still.)

[Maria]

You didn't give him failing grades on the papers?

[MithLuin]

Can you reduce them to quivering blobs of jelly with your voice? That's so unnerving.

No. I'm actually not all that intimidating of a teacher. But you do learn to give disapproving looks because that doesn't interrupt the flow of what people are saying.

[vison]

In my first job as a professor, I was harrassed by a male undergraduate. He turned in love poems instead of papers, and when I told him that was entirely unacceptable, he said, "You know you like it."



It was as if he was saying, "WELL, you think your status is higher than mine just because you're a professor -- WELL, but at the end of the day you're just a girl, and I'm MALE!!"

And also I was furious because it "worked" as a power play: I was actually frightened of him. And so I did lose power. (Even if I didn't let him see that he had scared me. still.)

Teremia, that's gotta be a novel.

But I'm sorry you were made uncomfortable.

When I was "harrassed" it was by a senior member of the law department where I worked. I was 20, he was probably 45. He used to stand very, very, very, very close behind girls in the elevator. I did complain in a minor way, but I understood that it was absolutely pointless on a number of counts. So one day when the elevator was pretty crowded I put my spike heel on the instep of his foot and put all my weight on it. I forget what a 120 pound girl creates in the way of psi when she puts all her weight on a heel that's about 1/4 inch square at the bottom, but it's a lot.

He more or less left me alone after that, but he picked on all the girls so it's not like I made him stop or anything. And our personel manager used to stare down my friend's blouse or dress and tell her that she wore her dresses too tight and her skirts too short. Which she did. But he didn't need to call her into his office every 5 minutes. He was war hero who had left one arm in France. So maybe looking was all he felt confident of doing, with only one arm.