Arizona Immigration Law

[yovargas]

[Note: I combined the two threads on this subject that were started within minutes of each other, using the title of Holby's thread because, as he said, it was a better title - VtF]

[Is there any way at all...]...to defend Arizona's evil new immigration law? Is there anybody willing to play devil's advocate that can explain why anybody that isn't racist and hateful would support this bill??

(to those not in the know, Arizona recently passed a bill that allows police to demand ID from people they "suspect" are illegal immigrants, amongst other things.)

[Holbytla]

Kind of surprised this hasn't been discussed yet, though I may have missed it.

There is quite the debate raging over this and I think it comes down to two general points.

States doing something to protect themselves against illegal immigration because the feds are failing miserably at it, and the terrifying (and maybe unconstitutional) power the law gives to police.

The issue with illegal immigration has had a serious and debilitating affect on the country and border states are trying to do something about the toll it has been taking on them. I totally agree with that.

I totally disagree with stopping someone and asking for their birth certificate to confirm their citizenship.

I think both parties are equally to blame, but I think this is an opportunity for the Obama administration to act.

Secure the borders and tighten immigration laws. Grant amnesty to those who are illegal now and get a grip on this. A well known civil war was fought on the basis of state vs. fed rights.

Jobs are needed so stimulate the workforce and hire border patrols. Control the issue. Do more.

And before the GOP comes down on me for suggesting amnesty, the last president to do so was Reagan.


edit:
And of course after I post this I notice that yov has started a topic similar.
Rarr.

I can delete and post in his thread, though min has a better title.

[Primula Baggins]

I'm sure there are people who are not racist and hateful who support this bill. Some probably believe in the perfect fairness, perception, and good will of the police. Some probably believe you can tell by looking someone whether they are committing a crime or not, and would firmly deny that the color of the person's skin has anything to do with it. When Uncle Bob was cheating on Aunt Myrna that time, they could tell by looking at him, after all.

And some probably just haven't (or won't) think it through to the consequences. An awful lot of people have it as an article of faith that no one who is not guilty of a crime is ever accosted by the police. In their world, all you have to do to avoid arrest is be a good person; false arrest is impossible, and people who claim it are lying to cover up their crimes.

And carrying your birth certificate with you everywhere you go seems like such a small thing to ask. Though probably you don't have to worry about it if you're a real American.

[River]

The police themselves aren't exactly jumping for joy about it either.

[Primula Baggins]

I get the feeling a lot of people in Arizona are hoping something stops the law from being implemented. Certainly people are getting lawsuits ready.

And, this is going to hurt them economically from a lot of directions at once.

[River]

Obviously there is a demand for the labor the immigrants come here to provide, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. The thing is, the people who come illegally are left very vulnerable to all kinds of abuse. I like the amnesty idea, coupled with severe punishments for those that hire illegals and opening up more H1 and H2 visas (skilled and unskilled worker) so employers can bring in the people they want and need through legal channels.

[Primula Baggins]

The piece of the puzzle that needs to be put in place is the punishments for people hiring illegals. But there are whole industries in the Southwest that depend completely on illegal workers. It's part of their business model. When there's discussion of ending the practice, they argue that forcing them to hire only legal residents and citizens would drive up the price of food. And they make political donations that help ensure that it's only the illegal immigrants who will be punished.

[River]

Fine. Then we pay more for food. Yes, I know first hand how much that could suck. But can we ethically hold onto the status quo?

[Teremia]

On the radio yesterday I heard that 1/3 of California's 400,000-plus migrant agricultural workers are illegal immigrants. That's the kind of huge number that suggests that just BANNING illegals can't work: our economy has been built up around them.

The Arizona thing makes me mad. I saw trawling like that in Paris, during a period of tension (terrorist bombings in the 80s): the police would be at the gates of the Metro, and take every brown-skinned person off for questioning/paper checks. I was REALLY a foreigner, but golly for some reason they never stopped me.

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

No the piece missing from the jigsaw is WHY they need to come to the US. Why is Mexico and Central America so full of people who need to better themselves by migrating. I hear no howls of outrage about people flooding in over the Canadian border.
In short it is inequity of wealth that is at the core of this. What economic circumstances have changed in the countries to the south of the US?
Solve that and you solve the immigration issue.

[Holbytla]

Illegal is just that. Illegal.

Sure that simplifies the issue, but you have to start somewhere.
And for the love of all things holy, we have to start fining corporations that hire illegal immigrants.

Too many generations in this country have fought for worker's rights, fair pay, benefits etc. Hiring illegal immigrants to supplant that is a slap in the face to our forefathers who fought hard and long to give us the rights we have today.

I don't want to hear anything about rising food costs, because it is all crap.
I work in the food industry, and the only goal is to replicate Wal-Mart to increase profit and send the funds overseas to foreign ownership.

It is time to stop the nonsense.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I combined the two threads, using Holby's title even though it was started a few minutes after Yov because, as he said, it is a better title.

Holby, I agree with you that both parties are to blame, but unfortunately there is no way that Obama is going to be able to force Congress to act on comprehensive immigration this year. As much as it is needed, it is not going to happen.

That having been said, obviously the answer is not for individual states to pass laws that mandate unconstitutional conduct as a matter of course. Even with the current conservative make-up of the SCOTUS, I don't see any way this law will pass constitutional muster. If it does, I might be moving north.

Edit: I'm pleased to see that one of the first legal challenges to the law has been filed by a police officer. I think this law puts law enforcement in an impossible position.

[Hachimitsu]

Holby and Yov, thanks for this thread. I saw it mentioned in some discussions I read on a controversial music video. (MIA's born free)

Now I know what this Arizona thing is about (and how people could associate with that vid.)
Now that about this, I am wondering how it got passed. Doesn't anyone in the Arizona legislature know history?

Immigration is a huge problem but as Tosh said, it's based on an economic problem, that many big business contribute to. I think even just the basic act of allowing unions in Mexico could seriously affect illegal immigration to the US. (Right now, many big companies do whatever they can to prevent factory workers in Mexico from getting unionized).

The illegal immigration is a consequence of keeping Mexico somewhat economically subservient. If people were actually getting fair pay in Mexico they wouldn't crossing the border. As several people here have noted already, some industries are built around illegal immigrants willing to take less pay.

I am glad it was a police officer who filed the first lawsuit.

[yovargas]

Illegal is just that. Illegal.

Unless they make it legal. Which they sometimes do. Or sometimes don't. And the entire lives of human beings are saved or destroyed on the whims of these legislations.

[Padme]

9500 Liberty - The Founders of The Coffee Party

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjHUb9PqysI

[Lidless]

It will find and catch a lot more illegal immigrants for sure.

The question that should be asked though, is whether that is the type of country and police powers you want. Is that the air you want to breathe when you leave the house?

Do you want anyone who is doing nothing illegal or suspicious to be able to walk freely down the street knowing they won't be stopped, or that they may be stopped just because of who they are.

The vast number of legal immigrants will find the Land Of The Free most unwelcoming now. Imagine once / twice every week being stopped and asked for your papers just because you look like George Lopez, whilst a Caucasian tramp can happily saunter by.

Smacks of Nazi Germany / Commie Russia to me. "Papers please!"

[Frelga]

Do you want anyone who is doing nothing illegal or suspicious to be able to walk freely down the street knowing they won't be stopped, or that they may be stopped just because of who they are.

Exactly! The issue with the law is not the effect on illegal immigrants. It's the effect it will have on legal immigrants, citizens, tourists - anyone who has brown skin and has an accent.

And while yours truly has pale pink skin and is a U.S. citizen, she does speak with an accent and has been mistaken for a Hispanic before. I honestly would avoid going to Arizona now if I can help it.

Smacks of Nazi Germany / Commie Russia to me. "Papers please!"

For the record, I grew up in Commie Russia, and had NEVER felt the need to carry papers with me.

[MithLuin]

Exactly. Even in a, er, less free society, papers were mostly for crossing borders and talking to the gov't on your own initiative.

I've been milling over in my mind what I think would be 'fair' (in my own world, not in the real world Arizona). I think it would be fair if police can arrest people for wrongdoing and, while holding/processing them, check their legal status. Meaning, it's not fair to get arrested for looking illegal, and police shouldn't really be setting up checkpoints to monitor that within the country (at the border is another issue, of course).

But if you are guilty of other legitimate crimes that would normally get you arrested...well then, by all means, arrest the person and check their citizenship/immigration status in the process. Make it part of the process so *anyone* who gets arrested gets processed that way, so it's not a racial profiling thing.

I don't know if they do that right now or not. But it should help to address the 'illegal immigrants involved in criminal activity' in Arizona problem, without turning the US into a draconian police state.

US citizens shouldn't be asked to produce birth certificates on demand. Being an immigrant (or looking like one) doesn't make you any less of a citizen.

[Inanna]

Well, I was stopped in Germany for papers post 9/11 (just me, not my Caucasian colleague with me). Of course, I'd left my id back in the office, and had to walk back with the officers and show it to them. (Funnily enough, it never struck me as racist till I came to US and thought back about it. Other actions in Germany struck me as racist - somehow, not that. Wonder why. Even now, it doesn't feel that way. )

Anyway - I hope the Arizona law doesn't pass. Am often mistaken for hispanic, and like Frelga, would rather not go to Arizona.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Mahima, the law has already been passed by the legislature and signed by the Governor. The only question now is whether it will stand up to court scrutiny.