Lies of the radical right

[Túrin Turambar]

The British applied divide and rule very well in India too - between Hindus and Muslims.

As ever, you remind me of a classic Yes Minister quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIXH3-A8zMI

You can explain virtually anything in politics with a Yes, Minister quote.

[halplm]

Anonymous source? The VICTIM said it was politically motivated. What other source do you want?

I was talking about the report that claimed that legislator was recruiting liberal activists to pose as Tea Party demonstrators holding racist signs.

Why would you find that hard to believe? And it's not hard to hide either, especially when you're an expert in community organizing, and can make a phone call to the local ACORN chapter...

[Dave_LF]

Just so we're clear; you're alleging that Barak Obama is hiring people to say crazy things while pretending to be members of the tea party, in order to making the whole movement look bad? Are we seeing that strategy at work right now?

[Primula Baggins]

Hal, ACORN is gone. You need to let go. (And are you implying the president of the United States is personally coordinating sabotage of tea party rallies?)

[halplm]

I wasn't accusing anyone of anything, just pointing out it's not hard.

And ACORN is not gone, it's just changed names.

And I will allege one thing for certain... Obama wishes the tea parties were gone in whatever way it could be done.

[Primula Baggins]

I've read differently; a lot of supporters of Democrats think that the more tea partiers get in the news, the better for Democrats' chances in the elections. Obama's pretty canny; I imagine that's what he thinks, too.

The tea partiers represent about 18% of Americans (link) and may well drive a lot of independent votes back to the Democrats (while also energizing Democrats to come out and vote). It's win-win.

[halplm]

I've read differently; a lot of supporters of Democrats think that the more tea partiers get in the news, the better for Democrats' chances in the elections. Obama's pretty canny; I imagine that's what he thinks, too.

The tea partiers represent about 18% of Americans (link) and may well drive a lot of independent votes back to the Democrats (while also energizing Democrats to come out and vote). It's win-win.

I'm not sure exactly what that link is supposed to tell me. I mean, ignoring the fact that it's from the NYT and CBS, which likely means it's completely bogus, it doesn't tell us anything that would suggest the tea parties would drive independent votes back to the democrats.

Trying to paint the tea party as old white men, as the media has been trying to do to the GOP as long as I've been alive, won't work, because it's simply not true.

The only way the tea party will drive people away is if the media is successful as painting them as radical violent racists... which they are certainly trying to do.

[Primula Baggins]

Hal, it's really not possible to have a conversation with someone who accepts no evidence of any kind for anything unless it supports what he wishes to be true. And that really is what you seem to be saying here.

The entire world is not a conspiracy aimed at destroying conservatism. In the United States, conservatives have been in charge, controlling Congress or the White House or both, pretty much continuously since 1980.

[halplm]

Hal, it's really not possible to have a conversation with someone who accepts no evidence of any kind for anything unless it supports what he wishes to be true. And that really is what you seem to be saying here.

There was an article on Politico a while ago that said the Tea Party was made up of primarily people that had not been politically active before, mostly women. Who are we to believe?

The entire world is not a conspiracy aimed at destroying conservatism. In the United States, conservatives have been in charge, controlling Congress or the White House or both, pretty much continuously since 1980.

No one is saying it's the entire world, in this instance it's only the NYT and CBS... both of which are pretty well into the established liberal bias of the media.

Conservatives have HARDLY been in charge of anything continuously since 1980. Republicans sure, but other than Reagan and Gingrich (sort of), none of the leadership has been that conservative.

[Inanna]

The British applied divide and rule very well in India too - between Hindus and Muslims.

As ever, you remind me of a classic Yes Minister quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIXH3-A8zMI

Glad to see I keep you entertained. And I loved that clipping, so you keep me entertained too

L_M, you're right.

[Nenochtoo]

The thought of these militias forming causes me abit of concern as I wouldn't want to be around when alot of angry people with guns become un-hinged. Wouldn't want to be ducking and dodging bullets. In this state there is a Neo-Confederate movement, alot of Rebel battle flags stuck on the bumpers of pick-up trucks and flying in front yards.

Very bad taste to fly the war banners of a defeated army of such a conflict as what ripped apart and scarred Virginia.

[N.E. Brigand]

Re the spitting on the congressman, here is a video of the incident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7wYt9jee2U
Skip ahead to about 1m 15s in.
Someone is yelling ('kill the bill'?) at the congressmen and looks to expel some spittle while shouting, which gets on Cleaver. Does not seem to be intentional, but rather a 'say it dont spray it' moment.
I did not hear any racial epithets being used in the video.

I watched it. It seems pretty clear that he was spit upon. Whether it was intentional or not, of course one can not tell, but in my book it is pretty disgusting, disrespect behavior that I would be embarrassed to be associated with even in the most indirect way.

I don't think it is clear at all that he was spat upon (saying he "was spit upon" makes it sound intentional). I think it is very clear that he was not deliberately spat upon, but rather that he got some saliva on his face from the man yelling.
But, while there is video of this incident, a week later and I still have not seen any video of the protesters yelling racial slurs at the congressmen.

Merely to footnote an odd and minor coincidence in the annals of expectoration:

Last week, I caught a few minutes of Glenn Beck's radio program, in which he was exhorting attendees of his then-upcoming event of this past weekend to behave properly and politely -- and he said, he felt confident that they would do so, despite attempts by the media to portray conservatives as uncivil. For instance, he said, referring back to this incident, no one was spat on at Congress earlier in the year. (Viewing the tape just now for the first time, I would agree with Infidel's interpretation that the protester spat on the Congressman unintentionally, in the course of his cupped-hand proclamations, which were directed at every passing Democratic politician.)

And then today I read a long Salon profile of Beck's early career, published almost a year ago. The third and final installment includes lengthy description of the first episode of Beck's first explicitly political talk show in August 1998, which followed on nearly two decades as a morning DJ. This was two days after the cruise missile strikes on Somalia and Afghanistan that failed to kill Osama bin Laden (a name apparently unknown to Beck, as to many others of us, until that day). Those attacks and response to them apparently were the primary subject of the day's show. This portion of the broadcast is what caught my eye:

Back on air, Beck dives back into the subject of dastardly peace protestors. He raises what would become one of his favorite subjects in the coming years: the lessons of Vietnam. "The problem with Vietnam is we didn't fight to win," explains Beck. "When you declare a war, there are no rules. Have you learned the lesson of Vietnam that we can't fight it half-assed? We need to fight it to the last body."

Beck then goes for the emotional jugular for the first time. The move comes in the form of a story about an unnamed "friend" of Beck's. This friend returned from Vietnam only to endure the abuse of protesting peaceniks. "He got off the plane from Vietnam and a woman spat in his face and called him 'baby killer,'" explains Beck. "Then he left his medal of honor in a trash can."

Whether Beck was aware that he was quoting almost verbatim from Sylvester Stallone's closing monologue in First Blood, it is impossible to say. But whatever its source, the story is dubious. As documented by Jerry Lembcke in his book The Spitting Image, stories of Vietnam vets being spit upon didn't gain currency until the 1980s. So many of those stories dissolved upon closer inspection that even after serious research efforts, not a single case of a Vietnam veteran being spat upon has ever been documented.

Beck's story about his veteran buddy sounds so pat that even his conservative listeners have to wonder. Within minutes, a caller asks, "About your friend who threw away his medal -- did that really happen?" Beck mutters, "Yes, but he regrets it now," then changes the subject

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Very interesting, N.E.B.

[Infidel]

As documented by Jerry Lembcke in his book The Spitting Image, stories of Vietnam vets being spit upon didn't gain currency until the 1980s.

Jim Lindgren at the Volokh Conspiracy noted a few years back that:

Jerry Lembcke wrote a book saying it was a myth, that he researched news stories and they started appearing around 1980. I have no independent source of information on this, but having done literally thousands of WESTLAW and LEXIS/NEXIS searches, I can say that when something starts appearing in the press in the early 1980s, that is almost always a function of when these two news services started including the full texts of major newspapers.

In a series of posts he then addressed a variety of Lembcke's arguments and assertions:
http://volokh.com/posts/chain_1170519427.shtml

[N.E. Brigand]

Well, thanks for that!
But see also this.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Interesting. I would guess that at least some of the stories are true, although it is possible that in some cases returning vets were victims of inadvertent streams of saliva from shouting protesters, just as the black congressman apparently was in the health care protest.