Bob who? Dylan picked up by NJ police

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Inanna
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Post by Inanna »

Rodia wrote:I don't get it. If you walk around the police can stop you and demand ID and if you don't have it, drive you away to identify you?

Why?
That's exactly what happened to me in the Airbus plant at Hamburg. After 9/11. Police were on a high alert, am not caucasian; they stopped me and my colleague, and asked only me for an ID, and the Airbus pass. My Airbus pass was back in my office, so they walked back with me, and once I showed it to them, they said thanks and bye.

I wasn't offended. They're doing their job - if they can't stop and ask random people their ID, how ever will we stop terrorism?
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Dave_LF
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Post by Dave_LF »

Lalaith wrote:Rodia, it really depends on the circumstances--where you are, what you're doing, your demeanor, whether you have any ID on you at all, etc.

The police did not just randomly drive by and stop Bob Dylan. They had a call from a citizen who lived in the area, and they responded to that call appropriately.
So suppose I'm a cranky old man who doesn't like kids (or black people, or strangers), and when I notice a teenager in a hoodie walk by my house I call the police and report him as suspicious. They're now free to detain him until they're satisfied he's innocent, just because I'm paranoid?
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Post by Primula Baggins »

They can detain him until it's clear they have nothing to detain him for. "Innocence" is not the criterion.

And, yes, the cranky old man could abuse this to harass people. But I'd bet after the second time it happened the police would be a lot less eager to follow up on a complaint from him.
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Dave_LF
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Post by Dave_LF »

Is leaving his driver's license at home something to detain him for?
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Investigating a report of a suspicious person is something to detain him for.

Look, this whole thing can definitely be abused, and I'm not defending that. But the police do have to have the ability to investigate reports of prowlers and such. If I saw someone hanging around the outside of my house at night, darn right I would want some police professionals to come out and find out what he was up to.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Post by Elentári »

This seems to be turning into a Lasto thread... ;)
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Post by Dave_LF »

Primula Baggins wrote:Investigating a report of a suspicious person is something to detain him for.
A moment ago you said "they can detain him until it's clear they have nothing to detain him for". If being reported as suspicious is itself something to detain him for, it seems we're back to saying the police have the right to detain you indefinitely if anyone reports you as suspicious for any reason, even if there's no evidence of a crime. I don't think that's the way it should be.
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Inanna
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Post by Inanna »

But should the police always wait till a crime is committed?
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Post by Primula Baggins »

By "until it's clear they have nothing to detain him for," I didn't mean "until they are convinced the detainee is as pure as the driven snow." I meant "until it's clear there's no reasonable cause for actually arresting the guy." In other words, not that he is innocent, but that there's no indication he's broken any laws or poses a threat to anyone's life or property.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Dave_LF
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Post by Dave_LF »

Exactly, and I don't think leaving your license at home is tantamount to breaking a law or threatening property. Neither is being out on the street at night looking at houses for sale.
Mahima wrote:But should the police always wait till a crime is committed?
To arrest or detain someone, they need to at least have evidence of intention to commit a crime. But walking down the street without ID in a neighborhood where no one knows you isn't a crime. I don't think they should have done any more than say "hey buddy; we're watching you".
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Post by axordil »

The courts make a presumption of innocence, the police, not so much. There's some reason for this: the proportion of people who are looking in windows of empty houses who are wanted for something else is higher than in the general population. Of course, so is the proportion of people looking for a house. :)

Some behaviors are going to attract attention in some neighborhoods. I can see myself in Mr. Zimmerman's shoes, definitely--I can also see myself in the neighbor's.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Elen is right, this has definitely become a Lasto thread. But I'll leave a shadow in the Cottage so that people can still find it.
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Post by TheEllipticalDisillusion »

Wasn't this the kind of stuff people were afraid of after 9-11? I've been asked what I was doing while standing outside of my mother's apartment talking on the phone. I was never asked to show ID, but I thought it was odd since I was right in front of the tunnel into the building.

I'm with dave on this.
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Post by Frelga »

Speaking for myself, no, that's not the kind of stuff I worry about. A man getting locked up after identifying himself as the owner of the house he was suspected of breaking into, that I worry about. This, no.
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Post by Elentári »

Maybe this is what Dylan was really up to: ;)

Bob Dylan to become the voice of your satnav?
Bob Dylan, the singer-songwriter who has taken his fans down Highway 61 by way of Lonely Avenue and Desolation Row, is in negotiations to voice a satellite navigation system.

The music star claimed that he has been approached by more than one manufacturer keen to harness his unmistakeable, rasping tones - a voice which one critic memorably likened to sandpaper. He shared the news with listeners to his late-night radio show, Theme Time Radio Hour, which is broadcast on BBC Six Music.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... atnav.html
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Post by ToshoftheWuffingas »

How many roads must a man go down?
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Forty-two.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Inanna
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Post by Inanna »

Related stories - Photographers vs. Security/Police:

http://carlosmiller.com/2009/08/20/home ... ng-in-nyc/
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Rodia
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Post by Rodia »

Well, I suppose it's not a huge deal, I mean I AM an innocent person (mostly) and there is a reason we give police the right to identify people. But I worry about this kind of stuff because I look suspicious, at least by most people's standards. I do, really. I usually get sales clerks following me around shops, and it's not because they want to assist me. I once got yelled at for standing in line to buy a train ticket- because the man in front of me thought I was going to ask him for change. In other words, I look suspicious. To make matters worse, I almost always carry a camera, and I walk.

What I'm thinking is, it's not really the police that are a problem here, you're right, they are doing their job, but I think maybe people are a bit too paranoid. Can't help that, I guess.
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Post by MithLuin »

One of my co-workers ended up having a conversation with the cops because he was a young black man wearing a backpack, walking through a neighborhood between the bus stop and his work. Someone saw him and thought he was suspicious, so called the cops. That kind of thinking is annoying, but it's not the cops' fault. It was the person who called who was nervous about getting robbed, and yeah, they're supposed to respond even if it is a misunderstanding. The guy didn't get arrested or anything, but he did have to explain himself, basically justify why he was walking on a public sidewalk in broad daylight. That doesn't feel good, and too many incidents like that can certainly be harmful to a community. But that's a quality of life issue more than a civil liberties deal.

I lived in the ghetto for a year. We walked downstairs to see our front door standing open at 11 PM on a Saturday. We panicked and called the cops...who showed up in under 3 min. with 2 squad cars and a helicopter :!:. It was all a misunderstanding - a man who had a key to the building (and used the downstairs offices) had stopped by, and we didn't know to expect him because that was unusual. Sure, we felt stupid afterward, but considering you could watch drug deals, arrests and shootings from our windows...we were glad to know that the cops *did* respond.

One of my friends in high school got the cops called on him because he parked on his girlfriend's street and waited/slept in his car until she got off work an hour or so later (he was a white teenager). The person whose house he was parked in front of called the cops. Since his mother was the 911 operator who took the call, I think that one got straightened out quickly ;).

And in general, calling the cops is better than trying to handle the situation yourself on some levels. If you honestly think someone is trying to break into your house, talking to them might not be the wisest move. Having the police talk to them? Better. Unless, of course, you happen to know how to use a samurai sword. (My excuse for resurrecting this thread).
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