Health Care Reform

[yovargas]

But hey, look on the bright side, at least very rich people will have less taxes to pay.

**sigh**

[Voronwë the Faithful]

If Tom loses his job again, I'm going to have to resign myself to going without medical insurance for six years. That is no joke.

And, of course, if Trump is reelected in 2020, there's no guarantee at all that Medicare will still exist in its current affordable form when I do reach 65.

I don't think they are going to pass this bill, or any "repeal or replace" bill, and I don't think Trump will be reelected in 2020.

[yovargas]

The awfulness of the proposal does seem like the rare thing that is getting bipartisan consensus. That's....nice....I guess?

[Frelga]

Well, not exactly. The conservative Republicans are against this bill because it does NOT go far enough. In taking health care away from anyone not wealthy, I guess?

I think something much like this bill will pass. Republicans are clearly more concerned with asserting political control than anything else and they will toe the party line in the end.

Edited because a "not" is important

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't think so, Frelga. It will only take three Senate defections to prevent it from passing (assuming that the bill actually passes muster as meeting the requirements for reconciliation, which still is not at all clear). There are more than that that are likely to be more worried about the pushback from constituents about losing expanded Medicaid then they are toing the party line. Off the top of my head, Collins of Maine, Heller of Nevada, and Portman of Ohio are very unlikely to vote for a bill that cuts Medicaid, among others. And if the bill gets amended to meet their concerns, it will lose more conservative support. I don't see a path forward for the GOP to meet both sides' objections sufficiently to pass both houses. But we'll see.

[Primula Baggins]

I certainly hope you're right, Voronwë.

Republicans were right (from their perspective) to fight the ACA as hard as they did. In just the years it's been in effect, a lot of people have learned to see the previous status quo as the shambles that it was. The frog doesn't want to jump back into the boiling water.

[Griffon64]

"Don't worry, Trump will never be president".
- The delusional past.

We'll see. I'm afraid I think Frelga is right. Republican politicians are all too ready to lick the sweet, sweet droplets of power off of whichever boots are available. A few principled ones like McCain have been making some noise ( about the Republican direction in general, not necessarily this issue ), but they're making no impression on the rest as far as I can see. I'll believe Republican politicians in general are more than that when they start showing it.

[Frelga]

IAWG
I don't think the enormity of the change to the fabric of democracy has begun to penetrate the American consciousness yet.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

"Don't worry, Trump will never be president".
- The delusional past.

We'll see. I'm afraid I think Frelga is right. Republican politicians are all too ready to lick the sweet, sweet droplets of power off of whichever boots are available. A few principled ones like McCain have been making some noise ( about the Republican direction in general, not necessarily this issue ), but they're making no impression on the rest as far as I can see. I'll believe Republican politicians in general are more than that when they start showing it.

There are at least seven GOP senators that have been highly critical of the House bill, and none of them are McCain (who I think is much less principled then he some times is given credit for), the three the that I listed above (Collins, Heller and Portman), as well as Tom Cotton of Arkansas (who seems to be the most vocal critic, which is interesting because he is generally very conservative), Steve Daines of Montana, Bill Cassidy of Louisiana and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska. And that doesn't include Rand Paul, who has also indicated that he won't support the bill because it too much like ObamaCare ( ). I don't think that there is any way that Trump and Ryan are going to get all of those Senators aboard without alienating the conservatives in the House (as well as others in the Senate like Ted Cruz and Mike Lee) who are already complaining that the bill doesn't go far enough in repealing the ACA, and might not support it even as it stands, let alone if it is changed to satisfy the Senators who don't to lose the Medicaid expansion or otherwise taking away coverage or raise the price of coverage for their constituents. I understand the skepticism, but taking away something from people that they already have is a lot harder than keeping them from getting it in the first place. I still don't believe they will be able to do it.

[anthriel]

Republican politicians are all too ready to lick the sweet, sweet droplets of power off of whichever boots are available.

Is this not true of politicians in general? I'm genuinely asking. Power is everything to any politician worth his/her salt, I would think. Or, in your estimation, it is only Republican politicians who crave power? Or are you saying Republican politicians will go to more (evil) depths than the more respectable Democrat politicians would?

I dunno. I've always thought they were far more like each other than any of them are like us. It's just which group they are courting for votes that changes what they say to get power. But power is what they need. All of them.

If Tom loses his job again, I'm going to have to resign myself to going without medical insurance for six years. That is no joke.

I haven't read this bill, feeling that it probably wasn't in its final form, and I do think they are working on it still. But was there something proposed that would take away access to healthcare for someone like you, Prim?

[Griffon64]

Or are you saying Republican politicians will go to more (evil) depths than the more respectable Democrat politicians would?

I dunno. I've always thought they were far more like each other than any of them are like us.

Well ... shucks. Let's see:

““Meals on Wheels sounds great” ... “we're not going to spend [money] on programs that cannot show that they actually deliver the promises that we’ve made to people.” ... "You’re only focusing on half of the equation, right? You’re focusing on the recipients of the money. We’re trying to focus on both the recipients of the money and the folks who give us the money in the first place,” Mulvaney explained. “And I think it’s fairly compassionate to go to them and say, ‘Look, we’re not gonna ask you for your hard-earned money, anymore, single mother of two in Detroit … unless we can guarantee to you that that money is actually being used in a proper function.’”

You could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her wherever.

We can’t restore our civilization with somebody else’s babies.

My fellow Americans, we are and always will be a nation of immigrants. We were strangers once, too.

We need to understand that there is no formula for how women should lead their lives. That is why we must respect the choices that each woman makes for herself and her family. Every woman deserves the chance to realize her God-given potential.

Of those things, the last two are more like me than the others. Maybe your mileage varies. Mine don't.

[Frelga]

Anthy, I don't think the question is, do politicians want power. It is, at whose expense are they willing to rise to it. And to that, I don't see any other answer than that the Republicans are far more willing to do so at the expense of the most vulnerable people. As in Griffy's quote, the focus is on who gives them money.

Back in the 90s, I would consider splitting the ticket. Today, I don't think the statement that politicians from both parties are the same is supported by evidence.

[anthriel]

Griff, thank you (and I do mean that!) for your answer. The Democrats sure talk more like people I would want to know. I will hide my genuine cynicism about politicians in general from now on.


Frelga, I understand what you are saying, and I can totally see where that is coming from. Thanks to you, too.

[yovargas]

I will hide my genuine cynicism about politicians in general from now on.

Why would you do a silly thing like that?

[anthriel]

I will hide my genuine cynicism about politicians in general from now on.

Why would you do a silly thing like that?

I think what my wise friends are trying to point out is that some politicians are more worthy of cynicism than others. That is a good point. The fact that I doubt all politician's words and truthfulness at some level, and I do believe all of them are interested in power, and they should be, as power is the only way they will ever get anything done (where is Holby?! He was always as big a cynic as I am) is probably not a particularly welcome viewpoint at this emotional and scary time in politics.

I do understand what Griff and Frelga are telling me. Their words need to be read, not mine.

[Primula Baggins]

Your words do need to be read.

Honestly the way things are going, I'm coming a bit unmoored. I am not used to being actually afraid for the future. I wish I could feel more hopeful.

[yovargas]

I will hide my genuine cynicism about politicians in general from now on.

Why would you do a silly thing like that?

I think what my wise friends are trying to point out is that some politicians are more worthy of cynicism than others. That is a good point. The fact that I doubt all politician's words and truthfulness at some level, and I do believe all of them are interested in power, and they should be, as power is the only way they will ever get anything done (where is Holby?! He was always as big a cynic as I am) is probably not a particularly welcome viewpoint at this emotional and scary time in politics.

I do think that is indeed true and to some extent, it's not the desire for power that is worrisome, it's the "what are you willing to do to get it?" and "what do you want to use that power for?" parts where it can get scary. I do think looking at those two questions, it's pretty clear that some pols are far worse than other in those regard.

[Frelga]

Well, yes. I trust politicians about as far as I can throw them. And I see Democrats as shouldering quite a large chunk of responsibility for what got us here.

It's just that on one side, we have, I dunno, Eragon? Flawed , pretty bad in places, but readable. And on the other, it's The Eye of Argon, where any hilarity is unintentional.

Honestly the way things are going, I'm coming a bit unmoored. I am not used to being actually afraid for the future. I wish I could feel more hopeful.

Can't blame you. My particular background prevents me from assuming that things will magically work out for the best. And STILL I found that I had been too optimistic.

[anthriel]

I think what my wise friends are trying to point out is that some politicians are more worthy of cynicism than others. That is a good point. The fact that I doubt all politician's words and truthfulness at some level, and I do believe all of them are interested in power, and they should be, as power is the only way they will ever get anything done (where is Holby?! He was always as big a cynic as I am) is probably not a particularly welcome viewpoint at this emotional and scary time in politics.

I do think that is indeed true and to some extent, it's not the desire for power that is worrisome, it's the "what are you willing to do to get it?" and "what do you want to use that power for?" parts where it can get scary. I do think looking at those two questions, it's pretty clear that some pols are far worse than other in those regard.

I agree with all of that. I didn't mean to imply that I was promoting the words of some of the Republican politicals as being value neutral, and I'm not sure how I got there with my post. I was asking, in response to Griff's "Republican politicians are all too ready to lick the sweet, sweet droplets of power off of whichever boots are available.", if it were the perception that not all politicians were equally interested in power. I think I needed to pay more attention to the "off of whichever boots are available" part of that, which must have meant something than I didn't read it to mean.

I just thought it meant that Republicans were willing to suck up to whomever had power to get some for themselves, and in my mind, all politicians are willing to do that. They would not succeed in politics if they didn't.

Well, yes. I trust politicians about as far as I can throw them. And I see Democrats as shouldering quite a large chunk of responsibility for what got us here.

I'm not sure what Democrats have done to deserve (some of) the blame, honestly. I'm not quite sure how we got here. Although part of it, I am sure, is politicians doing whatever it takes to be in power. At the expense of what is right for the electorate. But that's me being cynical again.

Honestly the way things are going, I'm coming a bit unmoored. I am not used to being actually afraid for the future. I wish I could feel more hopeful.

Can't blame you. My particular background prevents me from assuming that things will magically work out for the best. And STILL I found that I had been too optimistic.

I am afraid as well.

[Túrin Turambar]

I have to admit that, the older I get, the more cynical I become about people who are cynical about politicians .