Obviously, with millions of Republicans, there are some who would differ.
"Some"?
An important reason Republican candidates struggled in 2006 and 2008 was the diversity of opinion in the Republican Party. If they were the ideological monolith you describe, marching in lockstep behind Rush Limbaugh, they would have had no trouble. Plenty of Republicans have no time for Limbaugh; they are Republicans for reasons of fiscal policy, or views on social issues, or conservative convictions, or any number of reasons.
I feel sure you would object sharply to an attempt to characterize Democrats as all thinking alike or all blindly following a single leader. I would, too, because the reality is much more complicated. Please be willing to accept that this applies to the other party as well. Your efforts at demonizing one entire political party are tiresome, and offensive even to many of us who aren't Republicans.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
The bill is bad? Do you think anyone - Democrats, Republicans, half and half, could craft a bill that spends hundreds of billions of dollars on many many different programs without anyone being able to cherry pick a portion to mock and ridicule?
If perfection is the new standard of acceptability - we all fail. But of course, that is indeed the goal of some of the opposition. When you cannot advance the ball down the field beacuse your own offense has proven to be inept and incompetent, the only thing you can hope for is your defense capitalizes on the other teams mistakes.
I remember when they told us that TARP was absolutely necessary or the stock market would plummet. And it passed, and Paulson and Bush shovelled money down the gullets of the top bankers. And yet the stock market still has collapsed to 8000, and very little of that money has come back in loans to help revive the housing market.
If the plan if bad then it's better not to follow the plan at all. To do otherwise is to compound failure. We pass this bloated "stimulus" bill and the likely result is that the economy is still in shambles a year from now, but with the side effect of the budget deficit being even worse.
I don't know, maybe the bill as it now stands would work. But I'm rather suspicious after what happened with the bailout.
Prim - what is it that you are taking issue with? I said that there are some Republicans who would differ with Limbaugh,then you go on about how Republicans do not all think alike. What are you taking issue with that I said?
Cerins point was a valid one. I was following up on it and that is what I was speaking to. We saw Limbaugh issue his pronouncements on the air saying that he would personally call out any Republican who voted for that bill. And then they - every single House Republican - followed. And when one dared take issue with Rush on anything - he quickly did public penance on the Libmaugh radio show begging for forgiveness.
I really do not know what you are taking issue with that I was suppose to have said.
Last edited by sauronsfinger on Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
But I see reason to hope there will be better oversight of the second batch of TARP funds (not that that would be hard ), and I'm hoping that the stimulus bill that eventually emerges will be a better one with more accountability. It does seem that accountability matters to the new administration (yesterday the president was interviewed on video to discuss the Daschle nomination and said, in so many words, "I screwed up").
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
The problem with TARP was giving taxpayer money to private entities with essentially no accountability and not much in the way of evaluating results. Things have gotten worse since the first part of it went out--would they have gotten worse faster without it? Who knows? But the stated goals haven't been achieved.
A good stimulus bill (IMHO) would send money to states for projects, start national infrastructure work (power lines spring to mind) and funnel funds through avenues where they can be tracked more transparently than through a Wall St. firm's books. Some tax relief at the low end, where money would be more likely to be turned around immediately, wouldn't hurt. Enhanced small business loans would be OK too.
Any program that doesn't fall into one of those categories should wait its turn. I might support it too, but not as an emergency stimulus.
I think any program to deal with mortgages should come out of the half of the TARP funds remaining first and not get attached to the stimulus. If more mortgage relief is necessary when the TARP money has been spent, address it then.
sauronsfinger wrote:Prim - what is it that you are taking issue with? I said that there are some Republicans who would differ with Limbaugh,then you go on about how Republicans do not all think alike. What are you taking issue with that I said?
Cerins point was a valid one. I was following up on it and that is what I was speaking to. We we saw Limbaugh issue his pronouncements on the air saying that he would personally call out any Republican who voted for that bill. And then they - every single House Republican - followed. And when one dared take issue with Rush on anything - he quickly did public penance on the Libmaugh radio show begging for forgiveness.
I really do not know what you are taking issue with that I was suppose to have said.
sf, I am not going to get into a back-and-forth with you on this. Let me just say what Voronwë has already pointed out: that the fact that Limbaugh said "Vote no" does not mean that every Republican who voted no did so at his orders. You must know this. It just doesn't suit you to admit it, apparently. Saying "some Republicans don't blindly follow Limbaugh" has the same flavor as saying "some Democrats don't hate America."
Stop the bashing.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Prim - why is this a personal thing here? I am simply trying to discuss this issue on its merits.
Let me just say what Voronwë has already pointed out: that the fact that Limbaugh said "Vote no" does not mean that every Republican who voted no did so at his orders. You must know this. It just doesn't suit you to admit it, apparently.
WIth all due respect, Voronwë , or you, or me, or anyone does not know the individual personal reasons why every single Republican in the House voted NO on the Stimulus Bill. We have no 100% provable idea if Limbaugh was the driving force behind the NO vote of if he simply was a factor, or if he was no factor. All I did was to point out that Rush Limbaugh said on his show that he would call out and question the credibility of any House Republican who voted for the Stimulus Bill. And then none did - not a single one. Anyone can make of that what they want to drawing their own conclusions as to how the events unfolded. That is what we all do. We observe, we think, we draw conclusions.
This has nothing to do with what "suits me". And nothing is apparent. Why is this a personal thing?
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
Former Vice President Dick Cheney warned that there is a “high probability” that terrorists will attempt a catastrophic nuclear or biological attack in coming years, and said he fears the Obama administration’s policies will make it more likely the attempt will succeed.
From the ashes, a fire shall be woken. A light from the shadow shall spring. Renewed shall be blade that was broken. The crownless again shall be king.
Blah blah blah. He's just mad that he can't stand.
Obama took a step in the right direction today by setting limits to those golden parachutes that big execs use to jump out of their burning empires. CnN Clickeh
The stimulus package will pass, and in a year we will see whether it was a good idea that jump starts the economy, or we'll be kicking ourselves in the avocado pits. Problem is that without some kind of action, we're not going to get out of this by simply pulling up our bootstraps. The country will survive, and we'll have fun talking about it on the breadline together. King George had a Congress handing out blank checks to fight a war (have we won yet?) in a desert to steal their sand for our giant hourglass, so the fact that Obama is setting up oversight, and planning the use of the money shows that this package won't be as irresponsible as some might think. At least, we can be comforted that there will not be any blank checks with our people asking "uh, could I have some armor, please?"
Good article which indicates the Obama strategy for passing the Stimulus Bill. Its pretty much obtaining one vote at a time via personal talks with moderate Repubican senators like Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins of Maine and letting them remove some of the items they object to the most. Combined with Democratic Senator Nelson, they then reach the 60 vote number.
With each one of the bills that come up for a vote, you could make a case that it is not Hillary Clinton who is the most powerful woman in American politics, but Snowe and Collins.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
Obama authorized continued strikes in the mountainous regions of Pakistan. Once again, without prior approval of the Pakistani government. I think this is stupid. You cannot fight terrorism if you alienate the people of that country, on ground. If Pakistan spirals into chaos, it does not help anyone.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
Mahima, do you have a link to a story with more details?
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
I agree with what you are saying, but the Pakistani government at this point does not seem capible of curtainling the terrorists on their own. And the war-lords who are helping and hiding them between the moutain ranges between the two countries will use the citizens of Pakistan as sheilds.
Obama made no qualms about saying he was going to go into Pakistan and Afganistan when he was running for President. He was very adament about doing just that, taking the war from Iraq to there.
From the ashes, a fire shall be woken. A light from the shadow shall spring. Renewed shall be blade that was broken. The crownless again shall be king.
That's unfortunate. He's shutting down one war (mostly) and opening up a new war at the same time. No progress towards the goal of not being at war.
And this new war will cause the fall of the Pakistani government, which could easily end with radical Muslims in control of nuclear weapons.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
Padme, I agree that Obama said he would go into Pakistan, if need be. But he also said that Bush has followed a bad policy for Pakistan - supporting a dictatorial ruler and alienating the people. Now, they have a democracy, and I don't think Obama's continuation with Bush's policies is helping here.
I wish I knew the answer! India has suffered more than any country because of Pakistan's terrorist harboring and policies, and because of US's attitude towards Pakistan and the Pak-Afghan region. I don't think this is the answer.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
Padme wrote:Obama made no qualms about saying he was going to go into Pakistan and Afganistan when he was running for President. He was very adament about doing just that, taking the war from Iraq to there.
I remember that from the debate, and that was my greatest concern, as far as his stated platform at the time.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Hopefully, over time, the Obama administration's broader strategy (including the appointment of Richard Holbrooke as special envoy, which I understand has gotten mixed reviews in South Asia) will result in better cooperation with the Pakistani government, less need for unilateral attacks, and most of all a reduction (or preferably elimination) of civilian casualties. Only time will tell.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
), and I'm hoping that the stimulus bill that eventually emerges will be a better one with more accountability. It does seem that accountability matters to the new administration (yesterday the president was interviewed on video to discuss the Daschle nomination and said, in so many words, "I screwed up").
